4 ms·

Actually, some real cases are as weird as the hypothetical ones. A couple comes to mind: a guy rents a house in the middle of nowhere with the condition that he

by narag 4y ago

Actually, some real cases are as weird as the hypothetical ones. A couple comes to mind: a guy rents a house in the middle of nowhere with the condition that he won't play the grand piano that's in the middle of the living room. And another one, a guy suicides after his doctor diagnoses him with a terminal cancer. In case you didn't guess: the first guy played the piano and the doctor was having an affair with his patient's wife. So is playing the piano a valid cause for termination if nobody can hear it? Of course what every student ask is how the hell did the landlord know it was played? And, providing suicide is not illegal where the second case happened, is the doctor guilty of incitement to a non-crime?

practice9 4y ago
These cases feel like some kind of zen koans
- narag 4y ago
  Actually they're used in legal school. To add the "stop looking at the finger" part, they tell you that there's proof of what happened, but still most students keep wondering how was it known.
ALittleLight 4y ago
For the piano - I think it's perfectly reasonable to end the lease if the tenant violates the terms of the agreement. The owner may want the piano to remain undisturbed for sentimental reasons, personal belief, or playing the piano might degrade it. The question of how the owner knows the piano was played may be a separate wrong doing (either the owner falsely claims the piano was played or is improperly spying on the piano or tenant) but it shouldn't change the arrangement or consequences of violating it. For the doctor, assuming the doctor intentionally lied to his patient and this wasn't just a coincidental mistake, then I would say the doctor is guilty of murder by way of the felony murder rule. My logic being that tricking someone into believing they have a terminal disease constitutes (or should constitute) felony fraud. A person dying (by way of suicide) as a consequence of your felony means the felony murder rule applies and you are responsible for the death that results as a consequence of your felony.
- dylan604 4y ago
  > (either the owner falsely claims the piano was played or is improperly spying on the piano or tenant) Grabbing the wheel and jerking hard left... If the owner installs camera/microphones to check the piano status, that would be very creepy and leaning into the spying realm. If the owner installed sensors on the keys/hammers/strings/etc to detect movement, then I think I'd be okay with that. Those sensors would not know that you like to do naked yoga or pick your nose for 20 solid minutes every morning while still "protecting" the owner's wishes. Now, I'm trying to really think of if that's also invasive or if I'm accepting it for the sake of the derailed argument.
  - ALittleLight 4y ago
    Supposing the owner installed really invasive spying tools - the cameras and microphones, and used those to discover the tenant played the piano. Then, I think the owner would be guilty of whatever invasion of privacy law or tort is relevant, but the tenant would still be in breach of the contract. It would be right to punish the owner and tenant for their respective misdeeds, not say that because the owner did bad the bad action of the tenant should be forgiven or ignored.
    - guythedudebro 4y ago
      I think the law says otherwise? Evidence collected illegally is (usually?) not valid. Regardless, I could imagine it might incentivize spying otherwise.
      - ALittleLight 4y ago
        It's not valid for the state to collect evidence illegally. If it was then it would make sense to have any laws constraining how the state could gather evidence. In this case it's not the state that's spying, it's the landlord, and the landlord is constrained by the punishments for violating the law against spying. A slightly different spin on it, if the landlord witnessed a murder while illegally spying on his piano should his recording or testimony be admissible in court? I would say yes though again the landlord should face whatever spying penalties apply.
quickthrower2 4y ago
For the piano: contracts cannot change the law itself so any tenants rights will also apply. The doctor should lose their license and possibly be sentenced to murder but you would have to prove what was in his mind. Helps if he had a history of affairs with women whose spouses died under his care. Source: watched enough law and order.

by narag 4y ago

practice9 4y ago

These cases feel like some kind of zen koans

narag 4y ago
Actually they're used in legal school. To add the "stop looking at the finger" part, they tell you that there's proof of what happened, but still most students keep wondering how was it known.

ALittleLight 4y ago

For the piano - I think it's perfectly reasonable to end the lease if the tenant violates the terms of the agreement. The owner may want the piano to remain undisturbed for sentimental reasons, personal belief, or playing the piano might degrade it. The question of how the owner knows the piano was played may be a separate wrong doing (either the owner falsely claims the piano was played or is improperly spying on the piano or tenant) but it shouldn't change the arrangement or consequences of violating it. For the doctor, assuming the doctor intentionally lied to his patient and this wasn't just a coincidental mistake, then I would say the doctor is guilty of murder by way of the felony murder rule. My logic being that tricking someone into believing they have a terminal disease constitutes (or should constitute) felony fraud. A person dying (by way of suicide) as a consequence of your felony means the felony murder rule applies and you are responsible for the death that results as a consequence of your felony.

dylan604 4y ago
> (either the owner falsely claims the piano was played or is improperly spying on the piano or tenant) Grabbing the wheel and jerking hard left... If the owner installs camera/microphones to check the piano status, that would be very creepy and leaning into the spying realm. If the owner installed sensors on the keys/hammers/strings/etc to detect movement, then I think I'd be okay with that. Those sensors would not know that you like to do naked yoga or pick your nose for 20 solid minutes every morning while still "protecting" the owner's wishes. Now, I'm trying to really think of if that's also invasive or if I'm accepting it for the sake of the derailed argument.
- ALittleLight 4y ago
  Supposing the owner installed really invasive spying tools - the cameras and microphones, and used those to discover the tenant played the piano. Then, I think the owner would be guilty of whatever invasion of privacy law or tort is relevant, but the tenant would still be in breach of the contract. It would be right to punish the owner and tenant for their respective misdeeds, not say that because the owner did bad the bad action of the tenant should be forgiven or ignored.
  - guythedudebro 4y ago
    I think the law says otherwise? Evidence collected illegally is (usually?) not valid. Regardless, I could imagine it might incentivize spying otherwise.
    - ALittleLight 4y ago
      It's not valid for the state to collect evidence illegally. If it was then it would make sense to have any laws constraining how the state could gather evidence. In this case it's not the state that's spying, it's the landlord, and the landlord is constrained by the punishments for violating the law against spying. A slightly different spin on it, if the landlord witnessed a murder while illegally spying on his piano should his recording or testimony be admissible in court? I would say yes though again the landlord should face whatever spying penalties apply.

quickthrower2 4y ago

For the piano: contracts cannot change the law itself so any tenants rights will also apply. The doctor should lose their license and possibly be sentenced to murder but you would have to prove what was in his mind. Helps if he had a history of affairs with women whose spouses died under his care. Source: watched enough law and order.