4 ms·

Why are European engineers paid so low?

by daenz 4y ago

maccard 4y ago
Despite a generally higher cost of living in Europe, salaries across the board are lower. A £100k salary in the UK puts you in the 96th percentile for example. It's not just engineers, it's everyone.
- daenz 4y ago
  This is probably a controversial thing to say, but based on your and other comments in this thread, it seems like the social safety nets aren't worth the lower salaries. Or are they? It seems like non-Americans in this thread are unhappy that their ceilings are lower.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    The Welfare State is meant to be a stabilizing force to avoid social unrest and to guarantee that the elites can enjoy their power/status but at least not destroy the fabric of society completely. The Welfare State is not meant to be "worth it". You can not think of it as something that has a ROI, because it is not an investment. It is insurance. With that said: my net salary may be less than half of my American counterpart, but my quality of life is certainly better here. At the moment, I would be more interested in getting "German" salaries but to be able to live in Southern Europe than to get US-salaries in Germany.
    - dimitrios1 4y ago
      But it's precisely the welfare state that brought my former country to the brink, when a massive influx of refugees put so much strain on public services, that lifelong citizens were having to wait months for critical care and stirring up (understandable) angry, nationalist sentiment. And there are many such examples across Europe at different times. The other thing the safety net doesn't seem to provide is happiness, much to the chagrin of American democratic socialists. Overtime, unchecked depression results in the crumbling of society as well.
      - rglullis 4y ago
        Milton Friedman said "You can have Welfare State, or you can have Open Borders. You can not have both". What you are describing is one of my many objections to the EU.
    - leaflets2 4y ago
      > The Welfare State is meant to be a stabilizing force to avoid social unrest and to guarantee that the elites can enjoy their power/status Those are your beliefs, not facts. The Welfare State exists because some politicians genuinely care about people and want to help those who fall ill or have a divorce and no where to live or lose their job etc. Not all politicians are calculating sociopaths. > You can not think of it as something that has a ROI, Say that to the people in the US dying from cancer because they cannot afford the expensive treatments. Or a researcher 70+ years old, but who cannot retire (although he's 70+), because then he couldn't afford his medications. Or youths without money to study at University. Quite odd beliefs and ideas you've ended up with, from my perspective.
      - rglullis 4y ago
        > help those who fall ill or have a divorce and no where to live or lose their job etc. In other words: insurance.
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    It seems expected to me that the welfare state is not going to be worth it for the top quintile? That's kind of how redistribution of wealth works?
    - daenz 4y ago
      >Despite a generally higher cost of living in Europe, salaries across the board are lower. I was more responding to that idea: everything is more expensive, and everyone is making a lot less (not just the top quintile). Seems like a bad trade, but that's just my $0.02
      - mjochim 4y ago
        Except everything isn't more expensive. For example rent. Also, everyone can go see a doctor and pay nothing (not just the top quintile). All of this is if course simplified, but just to add another pair of cents.
        maccard 4y ago
        And groceries. I was _shocked_ at how expensive buying fresh food was in the US, and funnily enough, the most desired food was imported from the EU and was far more expensive. Here's a great comparison - aged parmesan cheese from the supermarket [0] [1] is $11/lb here, or $17+tax in the US. This is the same for a huge amount of ingredients too; cheeses, meats + veg. I helped a friend do his grocery shopping in a trader joes, by my best guess it was twice the price of my shop in Sainsbury's (a middle-of-the-road supermarket) [0] https://www.traderjoes.com/home/products/pdp/parmigiano-reggiano-aged-40-months-072358 https://www.traderjoes.com/home/products/pdp/parmigiano-regg... [1] https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/sainsburys-parmigiano-reggiano--taste-the-difference-200g https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/sainsburys-parmi...
        kortilla 4y ago
        > aged parmesan cheese from the supermarket [0] [1] is $11/lb here, or $17+tax in the US. No shit, it’s literally an import from Europe. It’s like comparing California wine prices in Las Vegas vs in Sydney. > veg. I helped a friend do his grocery shopping in a trader joes Trader Joe’s is not a grocery store for middle class people. It’s a high end convenience store. Unless you’re really well-off, you only buy a few select items from there occasionally. If you want to see prices the working/middle class pays, look at the prices at Walmart.
  - maccard 4y ago
    I'm an engineer living in the UK who likely _could_ move to the US and take a larger salary, but actively choose not to pursue that option. As I've said many times on this site, it's likely that after paying rent for an apartment in SF, health insurance, and all my living costs, my pay after that would be more than the gross pay of an engineer in most parts of the UK, I still decide not to move for a few reasons. The first question I ask is what would I do with the extra money. I don't _want_ to retire at 40 to pursue my dreams, I like what I'm doing and the pace that I'm doing it at. If I had the choice, I would choose to be where I am doing what I am doing. Why would I move somewhere else for 10 years to make money only to come back and do what I'm doing right now? [0]. I have friends, family, a life here. I don't want to uproot all of that (I have no kids and have already moved country, I don't want to do it again unless it would improve my quality of life). My partner would likely need to find something to do, as it's unlikely she would find a company willing to sponsor a visa for her line of work. Health care being tied to my place of employment is a total nightmare - I can only imagine what happens if I'm in a car accident and I end up at the wrong hospital, or treated by an anaesthetist that is out of network. It's also not just me, the injustice of it boils my blood, and I don't really want to contribute to that system. I own a car, but it spends 5 days a week parked outside my door, and is only used for "adventuring". The idea of movin somewhere to live in a large house that I have to drive for groceries, drive to the doctors, drive to the bar after work etc, is not appealing to me. The annual leave situation is commonly far superior in Europe - my current job has 40 days PTO per year, and I take them all. My previous job, the American employees had unlimited PTO, and I don't think my boss ever took anything longer than a long weekend in the 3 years I worked there. It also seemed many of them were banking on a "European trip of a lifetime" with their families, which I can do on the train from where I live (also I live in one of those bucket list countries to boot). > It seems like non-Americans in this thread are unhappy that their ceilings are lower. Grass is always greener. The Americans in this thread are complaining that it's so much more expensive to live in the US and are unhappy that it costs so much. Of course it seems the "ideal" situation is work for an American company, on an American salary and live in the UK, but having worked with Americans for the last decade, that has it's tradeoffs too - my workday starts at 10am and ends at 7pm (whereas my partner works 9-5). The "culture" of American work spills across, etc. [0] https://www.becomingminimalist.com/recognizing-happiness/ https://www.becomingminimalist.com/recognizing-happiness/ - it's not a perfect comparison, but the point stands!
  - leaflets2 4y ago
    > seems like non-Americans in this thread are unhappy that their ceilings are lower. Maybe a few men here who would want to maximize their income, save for the future? Seems like a good idea, Still, they're a bubble and not representative of people in general. Have a look, happiest countries: https://www.google.com/search?q=happiest+countries https://www.google.com/search?q=happiest+countries
lmc 4y ago
Employer social security contributions is a big one. In the USA it's around 5-10% of a worker's salary. In Spain it's around 40%. The gross salary a worker sees is after these, so not representative of what it actually costs to hire them.
codebolt 4y ago
I live in a country with 5 million people. Any software targeting the local market automatically has much less potential for growth than in the US with its 330 mln, so the work of making it has comparably less economic value. I'd say that's at least part of the explanation.

Why are European engineers paid so low?

by daenz 4y ago

Why are European engineers paid so low?

Despite a generally higher cost of living in Europe, salaries across the board are lower. A £100k salary in the UK puts you in the 96th percentile for example. It's not just engineers, it's everyone.

daenz 4y ago
This is probably a controversial thing to say, but based on your and other comments in this thread, it seems like the social safety nets aren't worth the lower salaries. Or are they? It seems like non-Americans in this thread are unhappy that their ceilings are lower.
- rglullis 4y ago
  The Welfare State is meant to be a stabilizing force to avoid social unrest and to guarantee that the elites can enjoy their power/status but at least not destroy the fabric of society completely. The Welfare State is not meant to be "worth it". You can not think of it as something that has a ROI, because it is not an investment. It is insurance. With that said: my net salary may be less than half of my American counterpart, but my quality of life is certainly better here. At the moment, I would be more interested in getting "German" salaries but to be able to live in Southern Europe than to get US-salaries in Germany.
  - dimitrios1 4y ago
    But it's precisely the welfare state that brought my former country to the brink, when a massive influx of refugees put so much strain on public services, that lifelong citizens were having to wait months for critical care and stirring up (understandable) angry, nationalist sentiment. And there are many such examples across Europe at different times. The other thing the safety net doesn't seem to provide is happiness, much to the chagrin of American democratic socialists. Overtime, unchecked depression results in the crumbling of society as well.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      Milton Friedman said "You can have Welfare State, or you can have Open Borders. You can not have both". What you are describing is one of my many objections to the EU.
  - leaflets2 4y ago
    > The Welfare State is meant to be a stabilizing force to avoid social unrest and to guarantee that the elites can enjoy their power/status Those are your beliefs, not facts. The Welfare State exists because some politicians genuinely care about people and want to help those who fall ill or have a divorce and no where to live or lose their job etc. Not all politicians are calculating sociopaths. > You can not think of it as something that has a ROI, Say that to the people in the US dying from cancer because they cannot afford the expensive treatments. Or a researcher 70+ years old, but who cannot retire (although he's 70+), because then he couldn't afford his medications. Or youths without money to study at University. Quite odd beliefs and ideas you've ended up with, from my perspective.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      > help those who fall ill or have a divorce and no where to live or lose their job etc. In other words: insurance.
- aidenn0 4y ago
  It seems expected to me that the welfare state is not going to be worth it for the top quintile? That's kind of how redistribution of wealth works?
  - daenz 4y ago
    >Despite a generally higher cost of living in Europe, salaries across the board are lower. I was more responding to that idea: everything is more expensive, and everyone is making a lot less (not just the top quintile). Seems like a bad trade, but that's just my $0.02
    - mjochim 4y ago
      Except everything isn't more expensive. For example rent. Also, everyone can go see a doctor and pay nothing (not just the top quintile). All of this is if course simplified, but just to add another pair of cents.
      - maccard 4y ago
        And groceries. I was _shocked_ at how expensive buying fresh food was in the US, and funnily enough, the most desired food was imported from the EU and was far more expensive. Here's a great comparison - aged parmesan cheese from the supermarket [0] [1] is $11/lb here, or $17+tax in the US. This is the same for a huge amount of ingredients too; cheeses, meats + veg. I helped a friend do his grocery shopping in a trader joes, by my best guess it was twice the price of my shop in Sainsbury's (a middle-of-the-road supermarket) [0] https://www.traderjoes.com/home/products/pdp/parmigiano-reggiano-aged-40-months-072358 https://www.traderjoes.com/home/products/pdp/parmigiano-regg... [1] https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/sainsburys-parmigiano-reggiano--taste-the-difference-200g https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/sainsburys-parmi...
        kortilla 4y ago
        > aged parmesan cheese from the supermarket [0] [1] is $11/lb here, or $17+tax in the US. No shit, it’s literally an import from Europe. It’s like comparing California wine prices in Las Vegas vs in Sydney. > veg. I helped a friend do his grocery shopping in a trader joes Trader Joe’s is not a grocery store for middle class people. It’s a high end convenience store. Unless you’re really well-off, you only buy a few select items from there occasionally. If you want to see prices the working/middle class pays, look at the prices at Walmart.
- maccard 4y ago
  I'm an engineer living in the UK who likely _could_ move to the US and take a larger salary, but actively choose not to pursue that option. As I've said many times on this site, it's likely that after paying rent for an apartment in SF, health insurance, and all my living costs, my pay after that would be more than the gross pay of an engineer in most parts of the UK, I still decide not to move for a few reasons. The first question I ask is what would I do with the extra money. I don't _want_ to retire at 40 to pursue my dreams, I like what I'm doing and the pace that I'm doing it at. If I had the choice, I would choose to be where I am doing what I am doing. Why would I move somewhere else for 10 years to make money only to come back and do what I'm doing right now? [0]. I have friends, family, a life here. I don't want to uproot all of that (I have no kids and have already moved country, I don't want to do it again unless it would improve my quality of life). My partner would likely need to find something to do, as it's unlikely she would find a company willing to sponsor a visa for her line of work. Health care being tied to my place of employment is a total nightmare - I can only imagine what happens if I'm in a car accident and I end up at the wrong hospital, or treated by an anaesthetist that is out of network. It's also not just me, the injustice of it boils my blood, and I don't really want to contribute to that system. I own a car, but it spends 5 days a week parked outside my door, and is only used for "adventuring". The idea of movin somewhere to live in a large house that I have to drive for groceries, drive to the doctors, drive to the bar after work etc, is not appealing to me. The annual leave situation is commonly far superior in Europe - my current job has 40 days PTO per year, and I take them all. My previous job, the American employees had unlimited PTO, and I don't think my boss ever took anything longer than a long weekend in the 3 years I worked there. It also seemed many of them were banking on a "European trip of a lifetime" with their families, which I can do on the train from where I live (also I live in one of those bucket list countries to boot). > It seems like non-Americans in this thread are unhappy that their ceilings are lower. Grass is always greener. The Americans in this thread are complaining that it's so much more expensive to live in the US and are unhappy that it costs so much. Of course it seems the "ideal" situation is work for an American company, on an American salary and live in the UK, but having worked with Americans for the last decade, that has it's tradeoffs too - my workday starts at 10am and ends at 7pm (whereas my partner works 9-5). The "culture" of American work spills across, etc. [0] https://www.becomingminimalist.com/recognizing-happiness/ https://www.becomingminimalist.com/recognizing-happiness/ - it's not a perfect comparison, but the point stands!
- leaflets2 4y ago
  > seems like non-Americans in this thread are unhappy that their ceilings are lower. Maybe a few men here who would want to maximize their income, save for the future? Seems like a good idea, Still, they're a bubble and not representative of people in general. Have a look, happiest countries: https://www.google.com/search?q=happiest+countries https://www.google.com/search?q=happiest+countries

lmc 4y ago

Employer social security contributions is a big one. In the USA it's around 5-10% of a worker's salary. In Spain it's around 40%. The gross salary a worker sees is after these, so not representative of what it actually costs to hire them.

codebolt 4y ago

I live in a country with 5 million people. Any software targeting the local market automatically has much less potential for growth than in the US with its 330 mln, so the work of making it has comparably less economic value. I'd say that's at least part of the explanation.