5 ms·

Europe is a very different system. Suppose I work freelance in New York City, so I make $20,000 a month. $8,000 -- city, state, and federal taxes take 40% $3,

Europe is a very different system. Suppose I work freelance in New York City, so I make $20,000 a month. $8,000 -- city, state, and federal taxes take 40% $3,500 -- rent $1,500 -- health insurance $4,000 -- care for my elderly mom total: $17,000 In other words, it is easy to make $20,000 a month in New York City and feel like you are barely surviving. I'm grateful I don't have children, as it allows me to take care of my mom. If I did have kids, then some very painful choices would have to be made about care for my mom. Europe is simply a different system.

maccard 4y ago
Most of Europe sees you with the same tax rates of roughly 40%, if not higher. Even after rent, tax, and health insurance, your leftover pay is more than a mid to senior engineer will _gross_ before tax and rent in most major European cities. The real outlier there is the care cost. if you didn't have that, you would have 7/month left over (and even after that, you have $36k/year) - that's more than a mid level engineer will gross in the UK.
- daenz 4y ago
  Why are European engineers paid so low?
  - maccard 4y ago
    Despite a generally higher cost of living in Europe, salaries across the board are lower. A £100k salary in the UK puts you in the 96th percentile for example. It's not just engineers, it's everyone.
    - daenz 4y ago
      This is probably a controversial thing to say, but based on your and other comments in this thread, it seems like the social safety nets aren't worth the lower salaries. Or are they? It seems like non-Americans in this thread are unhappy that their ceilings are lower.
      - rglullis 4y ago
        The Welfare State is meant to be a stabilizing force to avoid social unrest and to guarantee that the elites can enjoy their power/status but at least not destroy the fabric of society completely. The Welfare State is not meant to be "worth it". You can not think of it as something that has a ROI, because it is not an investment. It is insurance. With that said: my net salary may be less than half of my American counterpart, but my quality of life is certainly better here. At the moment, I would be more interested in getting "German" salaries but to be able to live in Southern Europe than to get US-salaries in Germany.
        dimitrios1 4y ago
        But it's precisely the welfare state that brought my former country to the brink, when a massive influx of refugees put so much strain on public services, that lifelong citizens were having to wait months for critical care and stirring up (understandable) angry, nationalist sentiment. And there are many such examples across Europe at different times. The other thing the safety net doesn't seem to provide is happiness, much to the chagrin of American democratic socialists. Overtime, unchecked depression results in the crumbling of society as well.
        rglullis 4y ago
        Milton Friedman said "You can have Welfare State, or you can have Open Borders. You can not have both". What you are describing is one of my many objections to the EU.
        leaflets2 4y ago
        > The Welfare State is meant to be a stabilizing force to avoid social unrest and to guarantee that the elites can enjoy their power/status Those are your beliefs, not facts. The Welfare State exists because some politicians genuinely care about people and want to help those who fall ill or have a divorce and no where to live or lose their job etc. Not all politicians are calculating sociopaths. > You can not think of it as something that has a ROI, Say that to the people in the US dying from cancer because they cannot afford the expensive treatments. Or a researcher 70+ years old, but who cannot retire (although he's 70+), because then he couldn't afford his medications. Or youths without money to study at University. Quite odd beliefs and ideas you've ended up with, from my perspective.
  - lmc 4y ago
    Employer social security contributions is a big one. In the USA it's around 5-10% of a worker's salary. In Spain it's around 40%. The gross salary a worker sees is after these, so not representative of what it actually costs to hire them.
  - codebolt 4y ago
    I live in a country with 5 million people. Any software targeting the local market automatically has much less potential for growth than in the US with its 330 mln, so the work of making it has comparably less economic value. I'd say that's at least part of the explanation.
the_gastropod 4y ago
If this a realistic representation of your situation, I have a tiny piece of unsolicited advice: open a retirement account like a SEP IRA. You can contribute up to 25% of your salary in there, and avoid those steep NY/NYC taxes. That can save you a truckload of money. And I know NYC rent is steep. I lived there as of 6 months ago, and spent a hell of a lot less on rent, and had an apartment no reasonable person would describe as "barely survivable"—it was a beautiful place in Downtown Brooklyn. Rents have increased a bit, as they have everywhere, this past year. But $3,500/month is.. more than ~1/3 of NYC residents take home a month total.
mypalmike 4y ago
Unless you are assuming worst case (ACA legal max out of pocket) you are vastly overpaying for health insurance. Average in NY is under $500. https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/new-york-health-insurance https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/new-york-health-insurance Also, you might look into state funded elderly care support. Saved my family thousands a month for my dad in assisted living in FL.

maccard 4y ago

Most of Europe sees you with the same tax rates of roughly 40%, if not higher. Even after rent, tax, and health insurance, your leftover pay is more than a mid to senior engineer will _gross_ before tax and rent in most major European cities. The real outlier there is the care cost. if you didn't have that, you would have 7/month left over (and even after that, you have $36k/year) - that's more than a mid level engineer will gross in the UK.

daenz 4y ago
Why are European engineers paid so low?
- maccard 4y ago
  Despite a generally higher cost of living in Europe, salaries across the board are lower. A £100k salary in the UK puts you in the 96th percentile for example. It's not just engineers, it's everyone.
  - daenz 4y ago
    This is probably a controversial thing to say, but based on your and other comments in this thread, it seems like the social safety nets aren't worth the lower salaries. Or are they? It seems like non-Americans in this thread are unhappy that their ceilings are lower.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      The Welfare State is meant to be a stabilizing force to avoid social unrest and to guarantee that the elites can enjoy their power/status but at least not destroy the fabric of society completely. The Welfare State is not meant to be "worth it". You can not think of it as something that has a ROI, because it is not an investment. It is insurance. With that said: my net salary may be less than half of my American counterpart, but my quality of life is certainly better here. At the moment, I would be more interested in getting "German" salaries but to be able to live in Southern Europe than to get US-salaries in Germany.
      - dimitrios1 4y ago
        But it's precisely the welfare state that brought my former country to the brink, when a massive influx of refugees put so much strain on public services, that lifelong citizens were having to wait months for critical care and stirring up (understandable) angry, nationalist sentiment. And there are many such examples across Europe at different times. The other thing the safety net doesn't seem to provide is happiness, much to the chagrin of American democratic socialists. Overtime, unchecked depression results in the crumbling of society as well.
        rglullis 4y ago
        Milton Friedman said "You can have Welfare State, or you can have Open Borders. You can not have both". What you are describing is one of my many objections to the EU.
      - leaflets2 4y ago
        > The Welfare State is meant to be a stabilizing force to avoid social unrest and to guarantee that the elites can enjoy their power/status Those are your beliefs, not facts. The Welfare State exists because some politicians genuinely care about people and want to help those who fall ill or have a divorce and no where to live or lose their job etc. Not all politicians are calculating sociopaths. > You can not think of it as something that has a ROI, Say that to the people in the US dying from cancer because they cannot afford the expensive treatments. Or a researcher 70+ years old, but who cannot retire (although he's 70+), because then he couldn't afford his medications. Or youths without money to study at University. Quite odd beliefs and ideas you've ended up with, from my perspective.
- lmc 4y ago
  Employer social security contributions is a big one. In the USA it's around 5-10% of a worker's salary. In Spain it's around 40%. The gross salary a worker sees is after these, so not representative of what it actually costs to hire them.
- codebolt 4y ago
  I live in a country with 5 million people. Any software targeting the local market automatically has much less potential for growth than in the US with its 330 mln, so the work of making it has comparably less economic value. I'd say that's at least part of the explanation.

the_gastropod 4y ago

If this a realistic representation of your situation, I have a tiny piece of unsolicited advice: open a retirement account like a SEP IRA. You can contribute up to 25% of your salary in there, and avoid those steep NY/NYC taxes. That can save you a truckload of money. And I know NYC rent is steep. I lived there as of 6 months ago, and spent a hell of a lot less on rent, and had an apartment no reasonable person would describe as "barely survivable"—it was a beautiful place in Downtown Brooklyn. Rents have increased a bit, as they have everywhere, this past year. But $3,500/month is.. more than ~1/3 of NYC residents take home a month total.

mypalmike 4y ago

Unless you are assuming worst case (ACA legal max out of pocket) you are vastly overpaying for health insurance. Average in NY is under $500. https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/new-york-health-insurance https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/new-york-health-insurance Also, you might look into state funded elderly care support. Saved my family thousands a month for my dad in assisted living in FL.