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Nonsense. I bought a hammer the other day and could start using it without signing away any of my rights. It's pretty much only digital products that somehow fo

Nonsense. I bought a hammer the other day and could start using it without signing away any of my rights. It's pretty much only digital products that somehow force you to do that.

kube-system 4y ago
If you brought the hammer home and it didn't work as you expected it to, you can take it back. Just like you can with this camera, you can decline the EULA and send the product back.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  You're not entitled by law to take a hammer back if it doesn't work as you expect it to.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > You're not entitled by law to take a hammer back if it doesn't work as you expect it to. Yes you are. If it’s not fit for the purpose you’re entitled to return it.
    - jhugo 4y ago
      "Works as you expect it to" is not the same thing as "fit for purpose". The purpose of a hammer is (mostly) an objective fact. Your expectations of what the hammer can do, on the other hand, may or may not be reasonable. (Though in this case I think it's perfectly reasonable to claim that the camera is not fit for purpose if the EULA terms were not clearly disclosed before the purchase was made.)
      - kube-system 4y ago
        > "Works as you expect it to" is not the same thing as "fit for purpose" For the purposes of that comment, I meant them to be equivalent ...under the presumption that a typical person knows what a hammer does. (I was avoiding the legalese)
        jhugo 4y ago
        Yeah. But I guess the distinction is quite relevant with things more complex than a hammer. For example, you are not legally entitled to return a camera because you thought it could shoot in 3D and it couldn't, unless the advertising falsely claimed that. The seller might accept a return, but they're not obliged to. The EULA thing is sort of on the edge of that. Many (most?) devices come with EULAs these days. So you could make an argument that the buyer can't reasonably expect there to not be additional terms that they must accept before using it. I don't really find that argument very compelling, though, if the terms are not available to the buyer at the point of sale.
  - paulmd 4y ago
    > You're not entitled by law to take a hammer back if it doesn't work as you expect it to. Actually afaik in most jurisdictions the sale of goods carries an implicit warranty from the merchant that the goods are "fit for purpose" - essentially that it "will work like you expect it to", or at least in the way that most people would expect a hammer to work - as well as that it is of an even kind and quality for the good. So like, if they sell you a hammer and it's actually made of glass, or the head falls off after the first hit - both of those would carry an implied warranty from the merchant and you would get your money back (in small-claims court, if necessary). The US is one such jurisdiction. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/implied_warranty_of_merchantability https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/implied_warranty_of_merchant... IANAL, but the plain text is pretty obvious. Are you a lawyer, or can you explain how merchantability wouldn't apply?
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      > "fit for purpose" - essentially that it "will work like you expect it to" These two aren't the same thing. That the hammer works as most expect a hammer to work isn't the same as that the hammer works as I expect it to work. If I try to take my hammer back because I thought hammers also worked on screws, I'm pretty sure they aren't obligated to take it back. It would be very hard to argue that your new RED camera isn't "fit for purpose" due to its onerous EULA, because plenty of people successfully make films with RED cameras.
      - paulmd 4y ago
        To be a bit brusque - the law is technical, but it's also written by humans and interpreted by humans, and programmers who spend all day working on computers and broadly trend towards the autistic side always try to come up with clever end-runs around the law that will never actually work in reality. See also: every time securities law or KYC/AML is brought up in crypto threads. Your "clever exploit" of the law is not going to work, and is going to land you in jail. If you buy a hammer and get mad that it doesn't make pizzas, the merchant isn't going to accept that, nor is a judge in small claims court going to be remotely amused. It's a hammer. Stop wasting my time, plaintiff pays all court fees and time for the defendant. They deal with bullshitters all day and they generally tend to be completely unamused by it. If you ask the merchant nicely they will probably take it back, most retailers have return policies and most of them will stretch them even further to keep the business of a repeat customer. But merchantability is a thing, and they can't sell you a thing labeled as a hammer that doesn't work in the way an ordinary reasonable person would expect a hammer to work. One person being an unreasonable person doesn't really change that. If you try and abuse it then the judge is gonna slap you down, but if they try and fuck you around about how a toaster is kind of a hammer in some ways then the judge is gonna slap them down.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    If the hammer could not drive nails, you would be entitled to a refund. If a camera refuses to take pictures, why would you not be entitled to a refund?
trhway 4y ago
>I bought a hammer the other day and could start using it without signing away any of my rights. The "smart hammers" are coming. And how about Peloton style group hammering.
- mysterydip 4y ago
  Haven't you ever wondered how many hits you've done? Your accuracy to the center of the face? Could your swing be improved? What's your hits per minute average? How do your stats compare to other contractors, or workers for the same construction company? I bet company owners would be interested to know ;) Coming soon, just sign the EULA and run a firmware update!
  - mardifoufs 4y ago
    A hammer showing you how much force you applied per strike would actually be semi useful.
    - mysterydip 4y ago
      The more I wrote, the more concerned I got that I was talking about a viable product.
      - myself248 4y ago
        Soon "dumber than a sack of hammers" will mean something else entirely. Paging @internetofshit ...
  - H8crilA 4y ago
    Claw usage DLC for $5, with ads enabled.
    - 83 4y ago
      As you level up handle firmness will be increased allowing for better accuracy and harder strikes. You can grind this to level up or buy 150 hammertokens for only $1 per token to max your stats.

Nonsense. I bought a hammer the other day and could start using it without signing away any of my rights. It's pretty much only digital products that somehow force you to do that.

kube-system 4y ago

If you brought the hammer home and it didn't work as you expected it to, you can take it back. Just like you can with this camera, you can decline the EULA and send the product back.

pessimizer 4y ago
You're not entitled by law to take a hammer back if it doesn't work as you expect it to.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > You're not entitled by law to take a hammer back if it doesn't work as you expect it to. Yes you are. If it’s not fit for the purpose you’re entitled to return it.
  - jhugo 4y ago
    "Works as you expect it to" is not the same thing as "fit for purpose". The purpose of a hammer is (mostly) an objective fact. Your expectations of what the hammer can do, on the other hand, may or may not be reasonable. (Though in this case I think it's perfectly reasonable to claim that the camera is not fit for purpose if the EULA terms were not clearly disclosed before the purchase was made.)
    - kube-system 4y ago
      > "Works as you expect it to" is not the same thing as "fit for purpose" For the purposes of that comment, I meant them to be equivalent ...under the presumption that a typical person knows what a hammer does. (I was avoiding the legalese)
      - jhugo 4y ago
        Yeah. But I guess the distinction is quite relevant with things more complex than a hammer. For example, you are not legally entitled to return a camera because you thought it could shoot in 3D and it couldn't, unless the advertising falsely claimed that. The seller might accept a return, but they're not obliged to. The EULA thing is sort of on the edge of that. Many (most?) devices come with EULAs these days. So you could make an argument that the buyer can't reasonably expect there to not be additional terms that they must accept before using it. I don't really find that argument very compelling, though, if the terms are not available to the buyer at the point of sale.
- paulmd 4y ago
  > You're not entitled by law to take a hammer back if it doesn't work as you expect it to. Actually afaik in most jurisdictions the sale of goods carries an implicit warranty from the merchant that the goods are "fit for purpose" - essentially that it "will work like you expect it to", or at least in the way that most people would expect a hammer to work - as well as that it is of an even kind and quality for the good. So like, if they sell you a hammer and it's actually made of glass, or the head falls off after the first hit - both of those would carry an implied warranty from the merchant and you would get your money back (in small-claims court, if necessary). The US is one such jurisdiction. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/implied_warranty_of_merchantability https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/implied_warranty_of_merchant... IANAL, but the plain text is pretty obvious. Are you a lawyer, or can you explain how merchantability wouldn't apply?
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > "fit for purpose" - essentially that it "will work like you expect it to" These two aren't the same thing. That the hammer works as most expect a hammer to work isn't the same as that the hammer works as I expect it to work. If I try to take my hammer back because I thought hammers also worked on screws, I'm pretty sure they aren't obligated to take it back. It would be very hard to argue that your new RED camera isn't "fit for purpose" due to its onerous EULA, because plenty of people successfully make films with RED cameras.
    - paulmd 4y ago
      To be a bit brusque - the law is technical, but it's also written by humans and interpreted by humans, and programmers who spend all day working on computers and broadly trend towards the autistic side always try to come up with clever end-runs around the law that will never actually work in reality. See also: every time securities law or KYC/AML is brought up in crypto threads. Your "clever exploit" of the law is not going to work, and is going to land you in jail. If you buy a hammer and get mad that it doesn't make pizzas, the merchant isn't going to accept that, nor is a judge in small claims court going to be remotely amused. It's a hammer. Stop wasting my time, plaintiff pays all court fees and time for the defendant. They deal with bullshitters all day and they generally tend to be completely unamused by it. If you ask the merchant nicely they will probably take it back, most retailers have return policies and most of them will stretch them even further to keep the business of a repeat customer. But merchantability is a thing, and they can't sell you a thing labeled as a hammer that doesn't work in the way an ordinary reasonable person would expect a hammer to work. One person being an unreasonable person doesn't really change that. If you try and abuse it then the judge is gonna slap you down, but if they try and fuck you around about how a toaster is kind of a hammer in some ways then the judge is gonna slap them down.
- kube-system 4y ago
  If the hammer could not drive nails, you would be entitled to a refund. If a camera refuses to take pictures, why would you not be entitled to a refund?

trhway 4y ago

>I bought a hammer the other day and could start using it without signing away any of my rights. The "smart hammers" are coming. And how about Peloton style group hammering.

mysterydip 4y ago
Haven't you ever wondered how many hits you've done? Your accuracy to the center of the face? Could your swing be improved? What's your hits per minute average? How do your stats compare to other contractors, or workers for the same construction company? I bet company owners would be interested to know ;) Coming soon, just sign the EULA and run a firmware update!
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  A hammer showing you how much force you applied per strike would actually be semi useful.
  - mysterydip 4y ago
    The more I wrote, the more concerned I got that I was talking about a viable product.
    - myself248 4y ago
      Soon "dumber than a sack of hammers" will mean something else entirely. Paging @internetofshit ...
- H8crilA 4y ago
  Claw usage DLC for $5, with ads enabled.
  - 83 4y ago
    As you level up handle firmness will be increased allowing for better accuracy and harder strikes. You can grind this to level up or buy 150 hammertokens for only $1 per token to max your stats.