9 ms·

My read on that is that it is total comp, so it includes bonuses/RSUs/options. If you're not negotiating for those things, what are you doing. Though $200k base

by daenz 4y ago

My read on that is that it is total comp, so it includes bonuses/RSUs/options. If you're not negotiating for those things, what are you doing. Though $200k base salary is not a crazy salary for a staff/principle/high-level engineer. I don't think people realize how corrosive to mental health a $200k engineering job can be though. I was making very close to that as a base salary, and the amount of responsibilities I had, that all directly contributed to the success of the organization and the engineering team, was frankly staggering. I was always available, even when I wasn't "on call." I was always putting out very important fires. It never ended.

conductr 4y ago
This is pretty universal to all industries. You just don’t get paid well for the work you do in X hours. You get paid well became you’re expected to put in a high amount of effort that isn’t measured in time or stress, except by you. Mo’ money, mo’ problems
- samhw 4y ago
  Also, speaking personally as someone doing £180k when I know my market salary is at most two thirds of that: I don't really spend the money, because I never want to be pinioned to my job, or to even feel like I'm locked into my job because I'd e.g. have to move out of my house if I quit. That limits you quite a bit, unless you're preternaturally confident in your jobseeking ability.
  - conductr 4y ago
    I do the same. I’m naturally frugal but have loosened up some as earnings increases but I don’t spend or leverage like my peers. They are prisoners to their jobs and I can (and have) said “enough” and walked away when jobs get too toxic. I don’t generally have a problem working long hard hours but I unplug at times where interruptions will not be fielded and I’ve been present during complete shit show management stuff that I just morally will not be associated with. It’s immensely helpful to my mental health knowing I can walk off anytime things go sideways. I even negotiate my compensation in a manner that I’m not beholden like those with stock, options or anything where vesting periods are involved. It’s typically event based and more short term. But, I don’t work in a field where I’m turning down early Facebook equity or something like that.
    - samhw 4y ago
      Yeah, that sounds very similar to me. I’m the opposite in terms of spending - I’ll naturally default to spending my income, rather than defaulting to not spending – but that only holds up to about £100k, at which point it goes beyond my capacity to (in a natural way) spend it all. But I share the concern about being a prisoner to one’s job. That’s my main concern. I don’t understand how so many people are willing to put themselves in a position - partly in terms of spending habits but primarily in terms of fixed commitments like rent and women - where they could not live their current life without their job, where losing or forgoing it would mean ruination, by the standards of the life they choose for themselves. That’s just beyond my comprehension. For me a job is a very contingent thing.
Dayshine 4y ago
You realise people work jobs as vital and stressful as that for a quarter of the money right? And that most people in the workforce don't get significant bonuses, and no shares. Software engineering is an absurd bubble.
- jasonjayr 4y ago
  Maybe the problem is not that tech is overpaid. Maybe the problem is that those other guys as vital and stressful are not being paid enough?
  - cwalv 4y ago
    > Maybe the problem is that those other guys as vital and stressful are not being paid enough? One possible reason for this is that in software the "means of production" is much more accessible, so it's easier for a group of developerss to go it alone than it is in many other professions. When tech salaries are compared to "small business owners" in general, it doesn't seem so out of whack.
- daenz 4y ago
  I'm not going to say people don't also have stressful and difficult jobs while making less. But I will say that I was paid what I was paid because the employer and I negotiated, and determined that my salary was mutually financially beneficial.
- e-clinton 4y ago
  Software engineering is a bubble like sports is a bubble
- julienb_sea 4y ago
  Tech salaries are a direct result of basic supply/demand. The available supply of workers and the demand for a job are, to a certain extent, independent from how "vital and stressful" the job is. The only bubble that might pop is an America first hiring mindset which constricts the supply. If this were to change I would expect tech salaries in America to go lower. Then again, this is not that hard to do, most large tech companies already have major offshore dev teams. There are clearly reasons why companies don't move more of their spend offshore.
rglullis 4y ago
Again, what part of the world are you on? Even in Berlin, with all the talks about it becoming a top destination for tech people, I'm yet to hear any 6-figures offer. Even the blockchain companies that were flush with cash were paying 90-95k€ to their top people, maybe a 10-20% performance bonus. Mind you, we are talking about Germany where the tax is ~42% of your income at this bracket if you are single. When I was freelancing, pay was higher, but my best year hit around 130k€ net income, and that only because I deferred a lot of it and got an accountant that advised me to put as much as possible into a private pension fund to have a bigger tax deduction. If I wanted to have that cash in hand, I would've ended up with maybe 80k€? Yes, cost of living is lower (though rapidly rising, and it is not a post-pandemic thing) and there is plenty of social welfare benefits. Especially after having kids, I wouldn't go to the US for a $200k/year job. But to think that this kind of compensation is par for the course shows a huge disconnect from the reality in the rest of world.
- shankr 4y ago
  yeah as another tech worker in Berlin, reading these salaries on consistent basis is kinda depressing. The 70-80K is like a starting tech salaries in larger part of US. Here in Berlin you have to toll for multiple years and then before you know you have hit the 90-100K ceiling. Just compare Berlin with any big American US city, Berliner's PPP is still quite low. This is after the salary "boom" in Berlin.
  - klausa 4y ago
    COVID and companies being more open to hire remotely has partially fixed that, I know of multiple people making 130kE+ in Berlin now, working remotely, with full benefits of being an employee of a German GmbH. I can give you some details via DM if you want.
    - shankr 4y ago
      yeah I won't say no :) Thank you!
    - atalw 4y ago
gabereiser 4y ago
The mental health aspect I think is often overlooked. When young engineers are eager to climb the ladder into senior/principal/distinguished positions (this was me, btw) they often overlook what it does to your mental health. The beginning seems great. Big problems, big solutions, everyone knows what’s their role in it and how to get it done. Over the years that view will fade. The certainty of success replaced by tooling up, research, supporting articles, still engineering hard stuff, fielding workshops by the business to help educate and rehash the vision to this next set of recent college grads. The complexity of the job increases as the responsibility increases. My brother is also an engineer and instead of going after titles and management he decided to stay as an engineer for as long as he could. He’s extremely happy working on things without having direct reports. There’s a sweet spot for everyone here. Some like more freedom and time to recharge (this is me) and some can balance the demands of the work with the demands to explore work (my brother). Then there are others who dive so far head first into work they burn themselves out. Please, take the time to find your balance. Not only will you be happier, people around you will be too.
- daenz 4y ago
  I tried to re-negotiate a 4 day work week, but they weren't having it, so ended up walking. I know it is privileged to say, but sometimes no amount of money is worth giving up things that are important to you. For me, I was giving up my time and ignoring a project that I think is very important. When I came to my senses about how the money isn't worth giving that up, they had to yield, or I had to leave.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    I’d like to do four days a week at 70% pay. No can do. Ok I quit, but I can consult 3 days a week at 200% pay. Sounds good.
    - aparsons 4y ago
      How would one go about finding such consulting gigs? I’m semi-retired now, but with nearly 4 decades of experience, I still didn’t feel comfortable becoming a full-time consultant.
ineedasername 4y ago
I think of it like this: They can't pay me enough to take a $200k job. By which I mean that for most $200k jobs, the money would not be enough to justify the trade off. But everyone makes their own choices on that sort of thing.
cercatrova 4y ago
Not sure why people say this. In the US, you can get a 200k USD job without any RSUs/bonuses/options, all in base salary, and these jobs won't be over 40 hours a week. I see it among my friends daily. And in FAANG, it's even higher, I've seen offers for people only with a few years of experience at 350k or more (RSU appreciation mainly, not base salary). It's more that people don't really believe the high salaries and think that there must be some catch. In reality, there isn't, it's just that software is eating the world and thus companies must pay for talent.
- kortilla 4y ago
  Google L5 in the Bay Area doesn’t pay $200k base. Your friends are either lying to you or you are an exceptional group not representative of standard senior Bay Area FAANG base salaries.
  - cercatrova 4y ago
    I never said FAANG pays 200k base. Companies who only pay in cash will have their total compensation be 200k. FAANG meanwhile pays a lower base, such as 170k, and the rest is RSUs. While FAANG base is lower, their total compensation is higher than other companies.
    - bornfreddy 4y ago
      Curious, which companies "pay in cash"? (I'm not from US)
      - cercatrova 4y ago
        Most companies pay in cash. It's really among FAANG and FAANG adjacent that pay in RSUs. Fortune 500s pay in cash, many of them at least.
        bornfreddy 4y ago
        Ah, misunderstood completely. Thank you for clarifying!

by daenz 4y ago

conductr 4y ago

This is pretty universal to all industries. You just don’t get paid well for the work you do in X hours. You get paid well became you’re expected to put in a high amount of effort that isn’t measured in time or stress, except by you. Mo’ money, mo’ problems

samhw 4y ago
Also, speaking personally as someone doing £180k when I know my market salary is at most two thirds of that: I don't really spend the money, because I never want to be pinioned to my job, or to even feel like I'm locked into my job because I'd e.g. have to move out of my house if I quit. That limits you quite a bit, unless you're preternaturally confident in your jobseeking ability.
- conductr 4y ago
  I do the same. I’m naturally frugal but have loosened up some as earnings increases but I don’t spend or leverage like my peers. They are prisoners to their jobs and I can (and have) said “enough” and walked away when jobs get too toxic. I don’t generally have a problem working long hard hours but I unplug at times where interruptions will not be fielded and I’ve been present during complete shit show management stuff that I just morally will not be associated with. It’s immensely helpful to my mental health knowing I can walk off anytime things go sideways. I even negotiate my compensation in a manner that I’m not beholden like those with stock, options or anything where vesting periods are involved. It’s typically event based and more short term. But, I don’t work in a field where I’m turning down early Facebook equity or something like that.
  - samhw 4y ago
    Yeah, that sounds very similar to me. I’m the opposite in terms of spending - I’ll naturally default to spending my income, rather than defaulting to not spending – but that only holds up to about £100k, at which point it goes beyond my capacity to (in a natural way) spend it all. But I share the concern about being a prisoner to one’s job. That’s my main concern. I don’t understand how so many people are willing to put themselves in a position - partly in terms of spending habits but primarily in terms of fixed commitments like rent and women - where they could not live their current life without their job, where losing or forgoing it would mean ruination, by the standards of the life they choose for themselves. That’s just beyond my comprehension. For me a job is a very contingent thing.

Dayshine 4y ago

You realise people work jobs as vital and stressful as that for a quarter of the money right? And that most people in the workforce don't get significant bonuses, and no shares. Software engineering is an absurd bubble.

jasonjayr 4y ago
Maybe the problem is not that tech is overpaid. Maybe the problem is that those other guys as vital and stressful are not being paid enough?
- cwalv 4y ago
  > Maybe the problem is that those other guys as vital and stressful are not being paid enough? One possible reason for this is that in software the "means of production" is much more accessible, so it's easier for a group of developerss to go it alone than it is in many other professions. When tech salaries are compared to "small business owners" in general, it doesn't seem so out of whack.
daenz 4y ago
I'm not going to say people don't also have stressful and difficult jobs while making less. But I will say that I was paid what I was paid because the employer and I negotiated, and determined that my salary was mutually financially beneficial.
e-clinton 4y ago
Software engineering is a bubble like sports is a bubble
julienb_sea 4y ago
Tech salaries are a direct result of basic supply/demand. The available supply of workers and the demand for a job are, to a certain extent, independent from how "vital and stressful" the job is. The only bubble that might pop is an America first hiring mindset which constricts the supply. If this were to change I would expect tech salaries in America to go lower. Then again, this is not that hard to do, most large tech companies already have major offshore dev teams. There are clearly reasons why companies don't move more of their spend offshore.

rglullis 4y ago

Again, what part of the world are you on? Even in Berlin, with all the talks about it becoming a top destination for tech people, I'm yet to hear any 6-figures offer. Even the blockchain companies that were flush with cash were paying 90-95k€ to their top people, maybe a 10-20% performance bonus. Mind you, we are talking about Germany where the tax is ~42% of your income at this bracket if you are single. When I was freelancing, pay was higher, but my best year hit around 130k€ net income, and that only because I deferred a lot of it and got an accountant that advised me to put as much as possible into a private pension fund to have a bigger tax deduction. If I wanted to have that cash in hand, I would've ended up with maybe 80k€? Yes, cost of living is lower (though rapidly rising, and it is not a post-pandemic thing) and there is plenty of social welfare benefits. Especially after having kids, I wouldn't go to the US for a $200k/year job. But to think that this kind of compensation is par for the course shows a huge disconnect from the reality in the rest of world.

shankr 4y ago
yeah as another tech worker in Berlin, reading these salaries on consistent basis is kinda depressing. The 70-80K is like a starting tech salaries in larger part of US. Here in Berlin you have to toll for multiple years and then before you know you have hit the 90-100K ceiling. Just compare Berlin with any big American US city, Berliner's PPP is still quite low. This is after the salary "boom" in Berlin.
- klausa 4y ago
  COVID and companies being more open to hire remotely has partially fixed that, I know of multiple people making 130kE+ in Berlin now, working remotely, with full benefits of being an employee of a German GmbH. I can give you some details via DM if you want.
  - shankr 4y ago
    yeah I won't say no :) Thank you!
  - atalw 4y ago

gabereiser 4y ago

The mental health aspect I think is often overlooked. When young engineers are eager to climb the ladder into senior/principal/distinguished positions (this was me, btw) they often overlook what it does to your mental health. The beginning seems great. Big problems, big solutions, everyone knows what’s their role in it and how to get it done. Over the years that view will fade. The certainty of success replaced by tooling up, research, supporting articles, still engineering hard stuff, fielding workshops by the business to help educate and rehash the vision to this next set of recent college grads. The complexity of the job increases as the responsibility increases. My brother is also an engineer and instead of going after titles and management he decided to stay as an engineer for as long as he could. He’s extremely happy working on things without having direct reports. There’s a sweet spot for everyone here. Some like more freedom and time to recharge (this is me) and some can balance the demands of the work with the demands to explore work (my brother). Then there are others who dive so far head first into work they burn themselves out. Please, take the time to find your balance. Not only will you be happier, people around you will be too.

daenz 4y ago
I tried to re-negotiate a 4 day work week, but they weren't having it, so ended up walking. I know it is privileged to say, but sometimes no amount of money is worth giving up things that are important to you. For me, I was giving up my time and ignoring a project that I think is very important. When I came to my senses about how the money isn't worth giving that up, they had to yield, or I had to leave.
- bombcar 4y ago
  I’d like to do four days a week at 70% pay. No can do. Ok I quit, but I can consult 3 days a week at 200% pay. Sounds good.
  - aparsons 4y ago
    How would one go about finding such consulting gigs? I’m semi-retired now, but with nearly 4 decades of experience, I still didn’t feel comfortable becoming a full-time consultant.

ineedasername 4y ago

I think of it like this: They can't pay me enough to take a $200k job. By which I mean that for most $200k jobs, the money would not be enough to justify the trade off. But everyone makes their own choices on that sort of thing.

cercatrova 4y ago

Not sure why people say this. In the US, you can get a 200k USD job without any RSUs/bonuses/options, all in base salary, and these jobs won't be over 40 hours a week. I see it among my friends daily. And in FAANG, it's even higher, I've seen offers for people only with a few years of experience at 350k or more (RSU appreciation mainly, not base salary). It's more that people don't really believe the high salaries and think that there must be some catch. In reality, there isn't, it's just that software is eating the world and thus companies must pay for talent.

kortilla 4y ago
Google L5 in the Bay Area doesn’t pay $200k base. Your friends are either lying to you or you are an exceptional group not representative of standard senior Bay Area FAANG base salaries.
- cercatrova 4y ago
  I never said FAANG pays 200k base. Companies who only pay in cash will have their total compensation be 200k. FAANG meanwhile pays a lower base, such as 170k, and the rest is RSUs. While FAANG base is lower, their total compensation is higher than other companies.
  - bornfreddy 4y ago
    Curious, which companies "pay in cash"? (I'm not from US)
    - cercatrova 4y ago
      Most companies pay in cash. It's really among FAANG and FAANG adjacent that pay in RSUs. Fortune 500s pay in cash, many of them at least.
      - bornfreddy 4y ago
        Ah, misunderstood completely. Thank you for clarifying!