3 ms·

This rule is addressing other actions by government, such as the choice of government funded schools to adopt an ideology that a majority views as dangerous to

This rule is addressing other actions by government, such as the choice of government funded schools to adopt an ideology that a majority views as dangerous to their children — and represents a limit on government power. Why would this constitute overreach?

jlmorton 5y ago
You're making a hypothetical argument that is only tangentially-related to the actual bill as-passed. The bill that was passed is deliberately vague. Beyond that, it empowers private citizens to sue teachers in their personal capacities for any alleged transgression. This is crazy. The status quo was that this question would be left up to school districts, with boards that are elected at the local level. If a teacher was not complying with school district policy, then the recourse was to fire the teacher. The bill you're arguing in favor of hijacks control from local voters, overrides the expressed preferences of parents and local voters, and relies on civil lawsuits to enforce a state policy.
- zmgsabst 5y ago
  I believe that you’re ignoring the role of state and national educational agencies and groups in the dynamic. It absolutely is not the case educational material decisions are a purely local choice as the “status quo”.
  - JaimeThompson 5y ago
    If the local area has a subpopulation with enough political power to ban the teachings of things they don't like, such as basic science, should they be allowed to do that given the harm it will cause the kids and society?
    - zmgsabst 5y ago
      Yes — I believe in democratic societies where if a majority feels something is dangerous, they have a right to make policy around that issue. I also believe in constitutional republics where we have overriding laws which protect minorities — but that doesn’t apply in this case, as there isn’t an inherent right to discuss sex with other people’s young children.
      - JaimeThompson 5y ago
        >I believe in democratic societies where if a majority feels something is dangerous, they have a right to make policy around that issue. So it would be acceptable for those same religious people to stop females from getting the same sort of education males receive? The damage done to others by such actions has to be taken into account.
        zmgsabst 5y ago
        > I also believe in constitutional republics where we have overriding laws which protect minorities I addressed that already. > The damage done to others by such actions has to be taken into account. This is something said but not done: look at how the male minority is treated in education, where the female majority speaks about equality while engaging in institutional sexism against the minority. If Democrats want me to believe they are genuine in those principles, they should apply them consistently.
        JaimeThompson 5y ago
        Why did you bring up Democrats in this discussion with the implication that other political parties don't do the same thing? >I addressed that already. Females are slightly more than 50% of the population.
  - jlmorton 5y ago
    What educational materials are you referring to? In Florida, the responsibility for choosing educational materials, negotiating with publishers, etc, was at the school district level. Schools need to adhere to the Common Core subject areas, but what materials they use in teaching that was up to the district. Recently, Florida's state-level Department of Education has been restricting the textbooks that school districts can use, but this is more of a reject list, than an accept list.
InitialLastName 5y ago
If the rule is meant to address actions by state government agencies and educational organizations (as your other comment implies), why is the execution of the bill only actionable at and/or below the school district level?
- zmgsabst 5y ago
  Why wouldn’t it be? There’s many mechanisms by which a school can be influenced and covering them all at a high level is difficult. In trying to set specific process controls, you merely encourage gamesmanship: “this wasn’t done by the board — we voted to outsource our decision to a NGO!” A more effective mechanism is to define the standard (ie, don’t talk to kids below 9 about sex in schools) — but give enforcement powers when that standard is breached to the people actually impacted by that breach. This law gives people a tool to hold government accountable when it breaches the norms expected by the community, eg when they groom children.

jlmorton 5y ago

You're making a hypothetical argument that is only tangentially-related to the actual bill as-passed. The bill that was passed is deliberately vague. Beyond that, it empowers private citizens to sue teachers in their personal capacities for any alleged transgression. This is crazy. The status quo was that this question would be left up to school districts, with boards that are elected at the local level. If a teacher was not complying with school district policy, then the recourse was to fire the teacher. The bill you're arguing in favor of hijacks control from local voters, overrides the expressed preferences of parents and local voters, and relies on civil lawsuits to enforce a state policy.

zmgsabst 5y ago
I believe that you’re ignoring the role of state and national educational agencies and groups in the dynamic. It absolutely is not the case educational material decisions are a purely local choice as the “status quo”.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  If the local area has a subpopulation with enough political power to ban the teachings of things they don't like, such as basic science, should they be allowed to do that given the harm it will cause the kids and society?
  - zmgsabst 5y ago
    Yes — I believe in democratic societies where if a majority feels something is dangerous, they have a right to make policy around that issue. I also believe in constitutional republics where we have overriding laws which protect minorities — but that doesn’t apply in this case, as there isn’t an inherent right to discuss sex with other people’s young children.
    - JaimeThompson 5y ago
      >I believe in democratic societies where if a majority feels something is dangerous, they have a right to make policy around that issue. So it would be acceptable for those same religious people to stop females from getting the same sort of education males receive? The damage done to others by such actions has to be taken into account.
      - zmgsabst 5y ago
        > I also believe in constitutional republics where we have overriding laws which protect minorities I addressed that already. > The damage done to others by such actions has to be taken into account. This is something said but not done: look at how the male minority is treated in education, where the female majority speaks about equality while engaging in institutional sexism against the minority. If Democrats want me to believe they are genuine in those principles, they should apply them consistently.
        JaimeThompson 5y ago
        Why did you bring up Democrats in this discussion with the implication that other political parties don't do the same thing? >I addressed that already. Females are slightly more than 50% of the population.
- jlmorton 5y ago
  What educational materials are you referring to? In Florida, the responsibility for choosing educational materials, negotiating with publishers, etc, was at the school district level. Schools need to adhere to the Common Core subject areas, but what materials they use in teaching that was up to the district. Recently, Florida's state-level Department of Education has been restricting the textbooks that school districts can use, but this is more of a reject list, than an accept list.

InitialLastName 5y ago

If the rule is meant to address actions by state government agencies and educational organizations (as your other comment implies), why is the execution of the bill only actionable at and/or below the school district level?

zmgsabst 5y ago
Why wouldn’t it be? There’s many mechanisms by which a school can be influenced and covering them all at a high level is difficult. In trying to set specific process controls, you merely encourage gamesmanship: “this wasn’t done by the board — we voted to outsource our decision to a NGO!” A more effective mechanism is to define the standard (ie, don’t talk to kids below 9 about sex in schools) — but give enforcement powers when that standard is breached to the people actually impacted by that breach. This law gives people a tool to hold government accountable when it breaches the norms expected by the community, eg when they groom children.