4 ms·

Why?

0xB31B1B 4y ago
because supply and demand matter, and units that are AirBnB'ed are taken off the market for long term rentals, leading to rents for locals rising higher than trend. Even given that in the perfect economy construction would keep up with demand, there is a ~5-10 year lag between demand signal and correction in construction (prices rise, new construction breaks ground, new construction opens, new constructions absorbs marginal demand, filtering from less expensive units to more expensive units, rent prices stabilize/decrease). 5-10 years is a sizeable chunk of my life and I would strongly prefer to not have a 5-10 year chunk of my life with elevated rents due to airbnb listings.
- bko 4y ago
  Apply this logic of maintaining the status quo historically. Imagine someone creates something to do (Y) with good X. Price of good X goes up due to increase demand. Consumers of good X lobby that this is bad and there should be laws to prevent good X to be used for Y. Also why are you optimizing for lower rents (as long as they are not AirBNB short term rentals)? What about the homeowners who benefit from having more things they can do with their property? Or the people that are coming to stay short term?
  - throwawaygh 4y ago
    > Also why are you optimizing for lower rents... What about the homeowners who benefit from having more things they can do with their property? Because basic shelter is WAY lower on the hierarchy of needs than rental income, and shelter is not a need that the US is adequately meeting even for its middle class.
    - bko 4y ago
      If you think the US should be doing more the shelter people without adequate shelter it should do so directly. Creating market distortions that purposely reduces the value of property and discourages production of the good is not the way to go. That would be like banning expensive restaurants because they're running up rent on inexpensive restaurants and soup kitchens. After all, desert is way lower on the hierarchy of needs than basic sustenance and food is not a need that the US is adequately meeting even for its middle class
      - throwawaygh 4y ago
        > Creating market distortions that purposely reduces the value of property and discourages production of the good is not the way to go. Zoning laws already create market distortions. A zoning law that prevents building denser residential property is no more or less distortionary than a policy that prohibits short-term rentals. Also, reducing the future expected value of property does not discourage builders; they only care about the sale price today (or, today + build time). > That would be like banning expensive restaurants because they're running up rent on inexpensive restaurants and soup kitchens. Restaurants are also far higher on the hierarchy of needs than shelter. We do distort the market in favor of soup kitchens -- they have substantial tax benefits and in many places they can operate out of differently zoned property.
      - gongdzhauh 4y ago
        What kind of actions are you considering that do not affect the market? Government housing affects the market by creating artificial supply. Regulations affect the market. just about anything that the government does will affect the market. If you believe that housing is a basic right and everyone should be housed, then relying on supply and demand is not going to work. There's nothing inherent about a market that would house everyone, if anything, a market would reach an equilibrium where supply meets demand at some point where some people are not able to afford the supply and suppliers do not have an incentive/are unable to meet the price point of the remaining demand.
- myohmy 4y ago
  You're missing the forest for the trees here. AirBnB only makes problems because we're all forced to work in designated commercial zones, and they "subverted" zoning laws. Now we're "subverting" zoning laws by allowing people to work from rural areas or wherever. People can then use market pressures to live wherever is cheapest and has the amenities they want! That will decrease demand for hot cities and should make it easier to live in them. Of course, that is presuming that our current demand craze has anything to do with residency at all, and isn't being driven by corporations like Blackstone buying up properties as investments, and Russian/Chinese oligarchs buying properties as wealth shelters. Funny how the Canadian market has suddenly chilled a little since the government banned foreign buyers. Must be a coincidence.
namecheapTA 4y ago
Imagine living in a nice forest home near Tahoe. 20 years ago you had neighbors you talked to and could borrow a tool from. Now you have a never ending flow of new tourists visiting Tahoe staying at the Airbnb next to your house.
- bko 4y ago
  You have no right to control who comes into your neighborhood. This idea has deep ugly roots (e.g. redlining).
  - kimbernator 4y ago
    The issue isn't who is staying there, it's the fact that they are just random people that don't have any stake in the surrounding community except for their 2-night stay there. Comparing this to redlining is absurd.
    - bko 4y ago
      They're not "random people". They're human beings. What's optimal time of stay? Maybe ban students or renters as well. Might stay longer than 2 nights but certainly they dont have a "stake in the surrounding community". Might as well ban hotels while you're at it. Again, trying to engineer who lives in your community is wrong IMO
      - kimbernator 4y ago
        Honestly this feels a bit odd to read - I think the point is clear that communities benefit from having long-term residents, regardless of who they are. If my neighbor makes too much noise, I can go talk to them and we will have an understanding. If an airbnb makes too much noise, I can tell the current residents to quiet down but there will be new ones in a few days. The residents don't stand to face any meaningful consequences for being a disturbance to the neighbors, and the owner of the house likely doesn't live in the community either so if I talk to them, there's no incentive for them to try and reduce the disturbances. Airbnbs around my house are known for this being a big problem. This is the reason that zoning laws put hotels in commercial space instead of residential. I am not trying to "engineer who lives in my community", I am trying to engineer a community.
bluefirebrand 4y ago
Not who you were asking, but I can take a stab at this. Short Term rentals of homes or condo units can erode a sense of community in an area where that's a common behavior. AirBnB renters aren't going to be around long so they have no incentive to be respectful to common areas, or respectful of noise levels or whatever else. Imagine buying a condo and all of the units around you are AirBnBs, or otherwise short term rentals. I think you would want to eventually get to know your neighbors a bit, but in this case they are constantly cycling in and out instead. I think weakening communities is something we're already seeing a lot of. Maybe it's a problem, maybe not, but I think AirBnB could potentially be contributing to this and it is worth considering the impact that might have.
- jen20 4y ago
  > Imagine buying a condo and all of the units around you are AirBnBs All of my recent research into condos showed any building where this could be an issue has explicit prohibition on short term rentals as part of the HOA. The more egregious HOAs even have prohibition on long-term rentals without a permit which can be denied by the HOA.
  - wombatpm 4y ago
    I refer to this as the Singapore solution. Singapore is nice, but you can’t buy chewing gum and caning is acceptable punishment for minor infractions. Many HOA’s are similar
  - munificent 4y ago
    I think you are reinforcing their point. The idea is to imagine what that would be like. The reality is so obviously undesirable that HOAs outright prohibit it.
- hirvi74 4y ago
  My city is the apparently the "Bachelorette Party Capital" of the world. So, of course, AirBnB would not pass up such a golden opportunity. According to a recent bit of data from AirBnB, approx. 65% of hosts on AirBnB own two or more short-term rentals [1]. Such ownership has strongly impacted our housing market, albeit it is not the only factor, but still a major contributor to the erosion of our housing market. Many of the anecdotal complaints I have heard are things like: 1. Obnoxiously loud and large parties/gatherings at inconsiderate times of day. 2. Unfamiliar cars and strangers in your community e.g. if the house next to yours is listed on AirBnB who knows what type of people are staying next to you -- they could be upstanding citizens or violent/non-violent thieves scouting out your neighborhood. People renting the unit are not always the only ones to stay there, and who are the police going to question when they have no idea who was there or when they up and left to return back home? 3. Vandalism and/or littering of surrounding properties. 4. Lack of community like the OP posted above. It also appears as of recently, that AirBnB's are being targeted for crime [2]. If one chooses to burglarize an AirBnB in my city, you have a pretty high chance of preying upon an n > 1 group of unsuspecting, young, unarmed women in an unfamiliar city who are more than likely not in the rental most of the time i.e. the perfect target for thieves. There are allegations that thieves are working with Uber/Lyft drivers to find out which addresses are AirBnBs or not and which ones the renters are currently away from. Such actions are absolutely horrible, but honestly rather clever. Think of it this way -- it's easy as being a driver for Uber/Lyft, picking the group of renters up, text your buddy the address, and boom -- a thief's dream come true. Neighbors won't call the cops because so many people are in/out of the rentals, they can't keep track of what is normal or suspicious activity. [1] http://insideairbnb.com/nashville/ http://insideairbnb.com/nashville/ [2] https://fox17.com/news/local/nashville-bachelorette-party-burglarized-at-airbnb-in-west-end https://fox17.com/news/local/nashville-bachelorette-party-bu...
sobren 4y ago
It's bad for the people living there for the same reason city councils don't allow hotels to be built anywhere. Short term rentals aren't a bad thing in of itself, but the purpose of zoning is that different locations serve different needs better. When you live in a neighborhood you expect there to be elementary schools near your house, and that there's quiet hours so that you can sleep during the night. ect. Hotels and by extension air bnb's disrupt this balance. If the five condo towers surrounding the school suddenly become short term rentals overnight, either the school needs to move or kids have to travel farther. And no amount of police presence is going to make tourists not party during 1 am. You tell one group to stop, well the next is coming in 3 days. And it goes the other way too. Having night life congregated together makes it easier for public services to their job. You can have more paramedics prepared for overdoses - enhanced police presence because drunk people are stupid, ect. Even if air bnb's aren't a net negative on the economy, skirting of local regulations have qualitative effects on the the city that shouldn't be discounted.

Why?

because supply and demand matter, and units that are AirBnB'ed are taken off the market for long term rentals, leading to rents for locals rising higher than trend. Even given that in the perfect economy construction would keep up with demand, there is a ~5-10 year lag between demand signal and correction in construction (prices rise, new construction breaks ground, new construction opens, new constructions absorbs marginal demand, filtering from less expensive units to more expensive units, rent prices stabilize/decrease). 5-10 years is a sizeable chunk of my life and I would strongly prefer to not have a 5-10 year chunk of my life with elevated rents due to airbnb listings.

bko 4y ago
Apply this logic of maintaining the status quo historically. Imagine someone creates something to do (Y) with good X. Price of good X goes up due to increase demand. Consumers of good X lobby that this is bad and there should be laws to prevent good X to be used for Y. Also why are you optimizing for lower rents (as long as they are not AirBNB short term rentals)? What about the homeowners who benefit from having more things they can do with their property? Or the people that are coming to stay short term?
- throwawaygh 4y ago
  > Also why are you optimizing for lower rents... What about the homeowners who benefit from having more things they can do with their property? Because basic shelter is WAY lower on the hierarchy of needs than rental income, and shelter is not a need that the US is adequately meeting even for its middle class.
  - bko 4y ago
    If you think the US should be doing more the shelter people without adequate shelter it should do so directly. Creating market distortions that purposely reduces the value of property and discourages production of the good is not the way to go. That would be like banning expensive restaurants because they're running up rent on inexpensive restaurants and soup kitchens. After all, desert is way lower on the hierarchy of needs than basic sustenance and food is not a need that the US is adequately meeting even for its middle class
    - throwawaygh 4y ago
      > Creating market distortions that purposely reduces the value of property and discourages production of the good is not the way to go. Zoning laws already create market distortions. A zoning law that prevents building denser residential property is no more or less distortionary than a policy that prohibits short-term rentals. Also, reducing the future expected value of property does not discourage builders; they only care about the sale price today (or, today + build time). > That would be like banning expensive restaurants because they're running up rent on inexpensive restaurants and soup kitchens. Restaurants are also far higher on the hierarchy of needs than shelter. We do distort the market in favor of soup kitchens -- they have substantial tax benefits and in many places they can operate out of differently zoned property.
    - gongdzhauh 4y ago
      What kind of actions are you considering that do not affect the market? Government housing affects the market by creating artificial supply. Regulations affect the market. just about anything that the government does will affect the market. If you believe that housing is a basic right and everyone should be housed, then relying on supply and demand is not going to work. There's nothing inherent about a market that would house everyone, if anything, a market would reach an equilibrium where supply meets demand at some point where some people are not able to afford the supply and suppliers do not have an incentive/are unable to meet the price point of the remaining demand.
myohmy 4y ago
You're missing the forest for the trees here. AirBnB only makes problems because we're all forced to work in designated commercial zones, and they "subverted" zoning laws. Now we're "subverting" zoning laws by allowing people to work from rural areas or wherever. People can then use market pressures to live wherever is cheapest and has the amenities they want! That will decrease demand for hot cities and should make it easier to live in them. Of course, that is presuming that our current demand craze has anything to do with residency at all, and isn't being driven by corporations like Blackstone buying up properties as investments, and Russian/Chinese oligarchs buying properties as wealth shelters. Funny how the Canadian market has suddenly chilled a little since the government banned foreign buyers. Must be a coincidence.

namecheapTA 4y ago

Imagine living in a nice forest home near Tahoe. 20 years ago you had neighbors you talked to and could borrow a tool from. Now you have a never ending flow of new tourists visiting Tahoe staying at the Airbnb next to your house.

bko 4y ago
You have no right to control who comes into your neighborhood. This idea has deep ugly roots (e.g. redlining).
- kimbernator 4y ago
  The issue isn't who is staying there, it's the fact that they are just random people that don't have any stake in the surrounding community except for their 2-night stay there. Comparing this to redlining is absurd.
  - bko 4y ago
    They're not "random people". They're human beings. What's optimal time of stay? Maybe ban students or renters as well. Might stay longer than 2 nights but certainly they dont have a "stake in the surrounding community". Might as well ban hotels while you're at it. Again, trying to engineer who lives in your community is wrong IMO
    - kimbernator 4y ago
      Honestly this feels a bit odd to read - I think the point is clear that communities benefit from having long-term residents, regardless of who they are. If my neighbor makes too much noise, I can go talk to them and we will have an understanding. If an airbnb makes too much noise, I can tell the current residents to quiet down but there will be new ones in a few days. The residents don't stand to face any meaningful consequences for being a disturbance to the neighbors, and the owner of the house likely doesn't live in the community either so if I talk to them, there's no incentive for them to try and reduce the disturbances. Airbnbs around my house are known for this being a big problem. This is the reason that zoning laws put hotels in commercial space instead of residential. I am not trying to "engineer who lives in my community", I am trying to engineer a community.

bluefirebrand 4y ago

Not who you were asking, but I can take a stab at this. Short Term rentals of homes or condo units can erode a sense of community in an area where that's a common behavior. AirBnB renters aren't going to be around long so they have no incentive to be respectful to common areas, or respectful of noise levels or whatever else. Imagine buying a condo and all of the units around you are AirBnBs, or otherwise short term rentals. I think you would want to eventually get to know your neighbors a bit, but in this case they are constantly cycling in and out instead. I think weakening communities is something we're already seeing a lot of. Maybe it's a problem, maybe not, but I think AirBnB could potentially be contributing to this and it is worth considering the impact that might have.

jen20 4y ago
> Imagine buying a condo and all of the units around you are AirBnBs All of my recent research into condos showed any building where this could be an issue has explicit prohibition on short term rentals as part of the HOA. The more egregious HOAs even have prohibition on long-term rentals without a permit which can be denied by the HOA.
- wombatpm 4y ago
  I refer to this as the Singapore solution. Singapore is nice, but you can’t buy chewing gum and caning is acceptable punishment for minor infractions. Many HOA’s are similar
- munificent 4y ago
  I think you are reinforcing their point. The idea is to imagine what that would be like. The reality is so obviously undesirable that HOAs outright prohibit it.
hirvi74 4y ago
My city is the apparently the "Bachelorette Party Capital" of the world. So, of course, AirBnB would not pass up such a golden opportunity. According to a recent bit of data from AirBnB, approx. 65% of hosts on AirBnB own two or more short-term rentals [1]. Such ownership has strongly impacted our housing market, albeit it is not the only factor, but still a major contributor to the erosion of our housing market. Many of the anecdotal complaints I have heard are things like: 1. Obnoxiously loud and large parties/gatherings at inconsiderate times of day. 2. Unfamiliar cars and strangers in your community e.g. if the house next to yours is listed on AirBnB who knows what type of people are staying next to you -- they could be upstanding citizens or violent/non-violent thieves scouting out your neighborhood. People renting the unit are not always the only ones to stay there, and who are the police going to question when they have no idea who was there or when they up and left to return back home? 3. Vandalism and/or littering of surrounding properties. 4. Lack of community like the OP posted above. It also appears as of recently, that AirBnB's are being targeted for crime [2]. If one chooses to burglarize an AirBnB in my city, you have a pretty high chance of preying upon an n > 1 group of unsuspecting, young, unarmed women in an unfamiliar city who are more than likely not in the rental most of the time i.e. the perfect target for thieves. There are allegations that thieves are working with Uber/Lyft drivers to find out which addresses are AirBnBs or not and which ones the renters are currently away from. Such actions are absolutely horrible, but honestly rather clever. Think of it this way -- it's easy as being a driver for Uber/Lyft, picking the group of renters up, text your buddy the address, and boom -- a thief's dream come true. Neighbors won't call the cops because so many people are in/out of the rentals, they can't keep track of what is normal or suspicious activity. [1] http://insideairbnb.com/nashville/ http://insideairbnb.com/nashville/ [2] https://fox17.com/news/local/nashville-bachelorette-party-burglarized-at-airbnb-in-west-end https://fox17.com/news/local/nashville-bachelorette-party-bu...

sobren 4y ago

It's bad for the people living there for the same reason city councils don't allow hotels to be built anywhere. Short term rentals aren't a bad thing in of itself, but the purpose of zoning is that different locations serve different needs better. When you live in a neighborhood you expect there to be elementary schools near your house, and that there's quiet hours so that you can sleep during the night. ect. Hotels and by extension air bnb's disrupt this balance. If the five condo towers surrounding the school suddenly become short term rentals overnight, either the school needs to move or kids have to travel farther. And no amount of police presence is going to make tourists not party during 1 am. You tell one group to stop, well the next is coming in 3 days. And it goes the other way too. Having night life congregated together makes it easier for public services to their job. You can have more paramedics prepared for overdoses - enhanced police presence because drunk people are stupid, ect. Even if air bnb's aren't a net negative on the economy, skirting of local regulations have qualitative effects on the the city that shouldn't be discounted.