5 ms·

Personally I'm curious about how they have rights to even know where you are at any given time. If you're an in-office employee, your responsibilities are (a)

by dheera 5y ago

Personally I'm curious about how they have rights to even know where you are at any given time. If you're an in-office employee, your responsibilities are (a) show up at the expected work hours (b) get your tasks done. If you're defined as a fully remote employee, your responsibilities are (a) be online and available at the expected work hours (b) get your tasks done. Besides that you're just an amorphous black box, a person that has been placed in the cloud, much like a website placed on Cloudflare, where the input is money and the output is work. They don't need to know where you are, and I'd say they shouldn't even have a right to know -- that would be quite stalkerish, IMO. All that's really important is that this black box gets tasks done.

schrodinger 5y ago
You can't just legally avoid taxes by not letting your employer know. Sure, they prob won't know and you'll get away with it, but you're technically breaking the law and an employer won't knowingly condone that. So it's not that they have a right to know where you are, it's that if they do notice and not act on it that's a legal risk to them as well since they're enabling it. (IANAL but this feels common sense.)
- dheera 5y ago
  I wasn't saying avoid taxes -- mostly just that the "90 day" thing is nonsense, because if you're a remote employee, you're effectively just a really intelligent amoeba on the face of the Earth without a well-defined location. Pay your taxes, but if you say 153 days in Thailand or wherever you can get a long enough tourist visa, and use a VPN to the US and get your work done, I'm not sure why anyone would, should, or even has a right to care.
  - schrodinger 5y ago
    Thailand has a right to care. You're earning money and not paying taxes to their roads, police, fire department, etc—all the things govt provides. When you're a true tourist, you are likely making up for this by boosting the local economy.
    - dheera 5y ago
      Usually by being someone with money and spending it on rent, food, etc. you're already making up for this. Countries with tourist visa stay limits are usually just to make sure you have the funds to leave. In general, if you come back the next day on another flight, with the intention of continuing to stay and spend money, they'll generally have no problem with it.
  - refurb 5y ago
    The company cares because they have legal obligations as well. Just because you pay for you taxes doesn't mean the employer is in compliance. Just like the US, many employers are obligated to pay additional fee/taxes/payments such as social security etc.
  - bonoboTP 5y ago
    Why do you think you have the right to just settle in other people's countries and ignore their laws (on taxes and other things)?
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  The simple answer is to do away with the notion that earning income should be taxable. Tax on the consumption side, it's easier to enforce and harder to avoid.
  - phantomathkg 5y ago
    That would be simple if AirBnB wrote the law. But sadly, they aren’t.
  - techdmn 5y ago
    The problem with taxing consumption is that it's pretty regressive. Not to say that there aren't solutions, but the existing sales tax, gas tax, etc aren't it.
    - notch656a 5y ago
      Taxing consumption instead of investments and savings seems like it would guide society more towards saving and investment instead of short-term consumption, though, no? Personally I'd rather not have taxes at all, but if you forced me to pick on of the three I'd pick consumption every time.
      - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
        how do you want to pay for roads?
        CryptoPunk 5y ago
        A congestion tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_pricing#Impact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_pricing#Impact
        notch656a 5y ago
        Tolls. Privatize the roads.
        5y ago
jacobr1 5y ago
Because the black box for legal purposes still presumes you are in-office. When you are remote, you are structured as working from your "home office" not anywhere.
- dheera 5y ago
  Hm. What if my home office was a van, or a private jet? Couldn't one just structure it as a consultancy? I mean, if I hire a consultant to do something for me, I could just pay them through PayPal or Venmo or even Ethereum and wouldn't need to know where their office is. Onus is on them to be legally able to work and pay their taxes.
  - wombatpm 5y ago
    That works because it’s a 1099 situation. But FICA, tax withholding and health care benefits are all tied up in your place of residence. Assuming you have a driver’s license and a voters registration, there is someplace you call home otherwise you are just a hobo
    - dheera 5y ago
      Hm. So what legal framework do "hobos" use? Surely it's not illegal to be homeless with a lot of money and skills. (a) Let's say you spend 1 week in each state for 50 weeks of the year. Where do you file your taxes? (b) Let's say you spend 1 week in each of 50 countries and work for AirBNB. You have no house, and no lease on a residence. Let's say it's mutual, e.g. you want to do this, and from their perspective, it's helping them because you're dogfooding their product. How do you deal with the legal side of it?
      - notch656a 5y ago
        The government generally doesn't recognize having no fixed address whatsoever. I was caught 20 miles from the nearest road once 'illegally existing' in a wilderness area in Oregon 'without a permit.' The officer of course had nowhere to take me because there was no prison or way to extract me out, we literally randomly found each other on a mountain. When I told him I had no address he literally had no way to enter that on his form. He told me it was impossible and he had to put _something_. I'm not sure what he ultimately wrote. Of course he let me go, because what the hell are you going to do someone 20 miles from the nearest road short of calling a helicopter. Having no address makes the government's brain explode.

by dheera 5y ago

schrodinger 5y ago

You can't just legally avoid taxes by not letting your employer know. Sure, they prob won't know and you'll get away with it, but you're technically breaking the law and an employer won't knowingly condone that. So it's not that they have a right to know where you are, it's that if they do notice and not act on it that's a legal risk to them as well since they're enabling it. (IANAL but this feels common sense.)

dheera 5y ago
I wasn't saying avoid taxes -- mostly just that the "90 day" thing is nonsense, because if you're a remote employee, you're effectively just a really intelligent amoeba on the face of the Earth without a well-defined location. Pay your taxes, but if you say 153 days in Thailand or wherever you can get a long enough tourist visa, and use a VPN to the US and get your work done, I'm not sure why anyone would, should, or even has a right to care.
- schrodinger 5y ago
  Thailand has a right to care. You're earning money and not paying taxes to their roads, police, fire department, etc—all the things govt provides. When you're a true tourist, you are likely making up for this by boosting the local economy.
  - dheera 5y ago
    Usually by being someone with money and spending it on rent, food, etc. you're already making up for this. Countries with tourist visa stay limits are usually just to make sure you have the funds to leave. In general, if you come back the next day on another flight, with the intention of continuing to stay and spend money, they'll generally have no problem with it.
- refurb 5y ago
  The company cares because they have legal obligations as well. Just because you pay for you taxes doesn't mean the employer is in compliance. Just like the US, many employers are obligated to pay additional fee/taxes/payments such as social security etc.
- bonoboTP 5y ago
  Why do you think you have the right to just settle in other people's countries and ignore their laws (on taxes and other things)?
throwawayboise 5y ago
The simple answer is to do away with the notion that earning income should be taxable. Tax on the consumption side, it's easier to enforce and harder to avoid.
- phantomathkg 5y ago
  That would be simple if AirBnB wrote the law. But sadly, they aren’t.
- techdmn 5y ago
  The problem with taxing consumption is that it's pretty regressive. Not to say that there aren't solutions, but the existing sales tax, gas tax, etc aren't it.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    Taxing consumption instead of investments and savings seems like it would guide society more towards saving and investment instead of short-term consumption, though, no? Personally I'd rather not have taxes at all, but if you forced me to pick on of the three I'd pick consumption every time.
    - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
      how do you want to pay for roads?
      - CryptoPunk 5y ago
        A congestion tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_pricing#Impact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_pricing#Impact
      - notch656a 5y ago
        Tolls. Privatize the roads.
        5y ago

jacobr1 5y ago

Because the black box for legal purposes still presumes you are in-office. When you are remote, you are structured as working from your "home office" not anywhere.

dheera 5y ago
Hm. What if my home office was a van, or a private jet? Couldn't one just structure it as a consultancy? I mean, if I hire a consultant to do something for me, I could just pay them through PayPal or Venmo or even Ethereum and wouldn't need to know where their office is. Onus is on them to be legally able to work and pay their taxes.
- wombatpm 5y ago
  That works because it’s a 1099 situation. But FICA, tax withholding and health care benefits are all tied up in your place of residence. Assuming you have a driver’s license and a voters registration, there is someplace you call home otherwise you are just a hobo
  - dheera 5y ago
    Hm. So what legal framework do "hobos" use? Surely it's not illegal to be homeless with a lot of money and skills. (a) Let's say you spend 1 week in each state for 50 weeks of the year. Where do you file your taxes? (b) Let's say you spend 1 week in each of 50 countries and work for AirBNB. You have no house, and no lease on a residence. Let's say it's mutual, e.g. you want to do this, and from their perspective, it's helping them because you're dogfooding their product. How do you deal with the legal side of it?
    - notch656a 5y ago
      The government generally doesn't recognize having no fixed address whatsoever. I was caught 20 miles from the nearest road once 'illegally existing' in a wilderness area in Oregon 'without a permit.' The officer of course had nowhere to take me because there was no prison or way to extract me out, we literally randomly found each other on a mountain. When I told him I had no address he literally had no way to enter that on his form. He told me it was impossible and he had to put _something_. I'm not sure what he ultimately wrote. Of course he let me go, because what the hell are you going to do someone 20 miles from the nearest road short of calling a helicopter. Having no address makes the government's brain explode.