4 ms·

> no one is trying to change sex or biological genders Except when they let men compete in women's sports. So if I have to choose between the new lefty versio

> no one is trying to change sex or biological genders Except when they let men compete in women's sports. So if I have to choose between the new lefty version of gender, or what we had before, I'm going to choose the old way because it didn't result in comically ridiculous outcomes like that.

4ggr0 5y ago
Granted, sports is a topic which we haven't really figured out yet. I'm also thinking about it a lot, how we could shape sports competitions, or if we leave the categorizations as they are etc. I don't have a definitive solution or answer to that. But - What you describe doesn't really happen that often and its made a bigger issue than it really is. Yes, it happens. Yes, some do seem to maliciously abuse it. Yes, we should talk about it and really chew it through. As long as you really mean the first word you used, 'Except', then I am fine about your comment. If you use sports as an argument or excuse not to accept trans sexuality or changes to gender roles, norms etc., then I fully disagree.
- oktroomer 5y ago
- orangecat 5y ago
  Granted, sports is a topic which we haven't really figured out yet. We figured it out long ago, and there were no problems before the gender studies majors got involved. Biological males and biological females should compete separately whenever there are significant physical differences between the sexes that affect outcomes. "Gender identity" is utterly irrelevant in this context.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  I don't even know what it means to 'accept' someones sexuality or not. It doesn't affect me so I don't consider it my business. What I am saying is that if a model produces a ridiculous outcome, like men competing in women's sports, it's probably not a good model.
csnover 5y ago
This is such a tired canard. Biological sex is an imprecise and discriminatory proxy for physical performance, and we can do better. Professional boxing already includes an additional objective measure—weight class—to improve match fairness. So not only is it possible to find a better discriminator, there is already one proven approach that can be used as a starting point today. Furthermore, using biological sex as the discriminator in sport doesn’t just create unnecessary conflict for intersex and trans players, it also excludes cis-gendered people who are talented, love sport, but just didn’t win the genetic lottery. Dividing leagues by metrics other than gender gives everybody more opportunity to participate. Again, going back to boxing, if the only metric were gender, most or all of the people outside heavyweight class wouldn’t be participating at all. Finally, I would also argue that team sport is more interesting when greater varieties of people with different strengths and weaknesses can play together. If we designed video games the way we run most sport leagues, matches would be split up into tanks vs tanks, dps vs dps, support vs support. Congratulations, you’ve made things “more even” by separating everyone using superficial physical traits, and lost most of the interesting dynamics of pitting different strengths against different weaknesses.
- 4ggr0 5y ago
  Great comment, this really changed my mind and gave me some different perspectives about how sports could be handled. Especially the part where diversity makes it more interesting in team sports.
- ttytg 5y ago
  That's all very well in theory, but what classes would you use to replace sex in practice? For example, in a recent women's swimming competition, Lia Thomas, who is male, was permitted to compete on the basis of his gender identity claims. Do you consider gender identity to be a reasonable method of categorization? Because that is the specific problematic issue here, not whether different attributes than sex could be used in general.
  - 4ggr0 5y ago
    I know I am being petty, but - "For example, in a recent women's swimming competition, Lia Thomas, who is MALE, was permitted to compete on the basis of HIS gender identity claims" At least address her with the correct pronouns, that's the least you could do in such a discussion. I hope my comment is not interpreted as arrogant, my point is that even if we are discussing biological sex that is no reason to strip people from their preferred (social!) gender.

4ggr0 5y ago

Granted, sports is a topic which we haven't really figured out yet. I'm also thinking about it a lot, how we could shape sports competitions, or if we leave the categorizations as they are etc. I don't have a definitive solution or answer to that. But - What you describe doesn't really happen that often and its made a bigger issue than it really is. Yes, it happens. Yes, some do seem to maliciously abuse it. Yes, we should talk about it and really chew it through. As long as you really mean the first word you used, 'Except', then I am fine about your comment. If you use sports as an argument or excuse not to accept trans sexuality or changes to gender roles, norms etc., then I fully disagree.

oktroomer 5y ago
orangecat 5y ago
Granted, sports is a topic which we haven't really figured out yet. We figured it out long ago, and there were no problems before the gender studies majors got involved. Biological males and biological females should compete separately whenever there are significant physical differences between the sexes that affect outcomes. "Gender identity" is utterly irrelevant in this context.
fallingknife 5y ago
I don't even know what it means to 'accept' someones sexuality or not. It doesn't affect me so I don't consider it my business. What I am saying is that if a model produces a ridiculous outcome, like men competing in women's sports, it's probably not a good model.

csnover 5y ago

This is such a tired canard. Biological sex is an imprecise and discriminatory proxy for physical performance, and we can do better. Professional boxing already includes an additional objective measure—weight class—to improve match fairness. So not only is it possible to find a better discriminator, there is already one proven approach that can be used as a starting point today. Furthermore, using biological sex as the discriminator in sport doesn’t just create unnecessary conflict for intersex and trans players, it also excludes cis-gendered people who are talented, love sport, but just didn’t win the genetic lottery. Dividing leagues by metrics other than gender gives everybody more opportunity to participate. Again, going back to boxing, if the only metric were gender, most or all of the people outside heavyweight class wouldn’t be participating at all. Finally, I would also argue that team sport is more interesting when greater varieties of people with different strengths and weaknesses can play together. If we designed video games the way we run most sport leagues, matches would be split up into tanks vs tanks, dps vs dps, support vs support. Congratulations, you’ve made things “more even” by separating everyone using superficial physical traits, and lost most of the interesting dynamics of pitting different strengths against different weaknesses.

4ggr0 5y ago
Great comment, this really changed my mind and gave me some different perspectives about how sports could be handled. Especially the part where diversity makes it more interesting in team sports.
ttytg 5y ago
That's all very well in theory, but what classes would you use to replace sex in practice? For example, in a recent women's swimming competition, Lia Thomas, who is male, was permitted to compete on the basis of his gender identity claims. Do you consider gender identity to be a reasonable method of categorization? Because that is the specific problematic issue here, not whether different attributes than sex could be used in general.
- 4ggr0 5y ago
  I know I am being petty, but - "For example, in a recent women's swimming competition, Lia Thomas, who is MALE, was permitted to compete on the basis of HIS gender identity claims" At least address her with the correct pronouns, that's the least you could do in such a discussion. I hope my comment is not interpreted as arrogant, my point is that even if we are discussing biological sex that is no reason to strip people from their preferred (social!) gender.