7 ms·

I can’t understand what you’re trying to convey. The terms fascist and nazi seem to have lost all meaning nowadays…at least to the far left.

by rank0 5y ago

_usr1 5y ago
Good god, enough with this "fascist and nazi seem to have lost all meaning" nonsense. Let's call it the "No true fascist fallacy". I could bring the corpse of Himmler here and some people would regurgitate the same "Bu-bu-but that's not actually fascist enough!". OP was basically quoting the definition of Ur-fascism by Umberto Eco. Is that historically accurate enough for you? Or should we check beforehand if whoever he was referring to has ever took part in the Salo republic, before we commit the grave sin of not being taxonomically accurate?
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  Well yes, the Goodwin point is now crossed very casually, just like people are using superlatives for the mundane things, such as "I ate the most amazing fries yesterday". This makes for poor debates, where there is little nuance, fuzzy scales and hardly meaningful communication.
- zmgsabst 5y ago
  The reason people focus on definitions like “oh, it’s really about toxic masculinity!” is because admitting the truth would make them look bad: Fascism is a collectivist authoritarian system with regulated commerce rather than direct state control, often co-occurring with systemic racism. The reason people don’t want to be honest about the definition is that it’s the platform of modern Democrats, who are gaslighting by calling everyone else a “fascist”: Democrats are collectivist authoritarian. Democrats are pushing for regulated commerce. Democrats are rebuilding systemic racism, from rationing healthcare [2] and government aid [1] based on race to attempting to repeal civil rights laws in WA [4] and CA [3]. Democrats took to the street in acts of arson, violence, and murder to terrorize the public ahead of an election — the modern Brownshirts. [5] Democrats are fascist. Sources: https://nypost.com/2021/06/15/farmers-upset-with-bidens-american-rescue-plan-act/ https://nypost.com/2021/06/15/farmers-upset-with-bidens-amer... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/race-based-covid-rationing-ideology/621405/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/race-based... https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_16,_Repeal_Proposition_209_Affirmative_Action_Amendment_(2020) https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_16,_Repeal_Pr... https://ballotpedia.org/Washington_Initiative_1000,_Affirmative_Action_and_Diversity_Commission_Measure_(2019) https://ballotpedia.org/Washington_Initiative_1000,_Affirmat... https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-what-happened-at-the-chop-shooting-that-killed-a-teenager-and-led-to-the-areas-shutdown/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-wha...
  - leereeves 5y ago
    > Fascism is a collectivist authoritarian system with regulated commerce rather than direct state control That's the clearest definition of fascism I've ever heard. Where's it from?
    - zmgsabst 5y ago
      I’m paraphrasing what the fascists said their goals were. If you read about fascism, their proponents viewed it as “Marxism 2.0” — where they could leverage the socialist ideas of collectivist authoritarianism without the problems encountered by the original Marxist revolutionaries with total state control of commerce. A unified populace where “everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.”
      - _0ffh 4y ago
        Quite, one of the biggest influences on fascism was the nationalist wing of the corporatist syndicalists. Mussolini himself said "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power".
  - 8note 5y ago
    The Democrats are trying to get rid of government violence via getting rid of police. How is that authoritarian?
  - _usr1 5y ago
    I couldn't care less what oblique definition of fascism came out from some american think-tank in the 80s, narrow enough to not anger any of their thatcherian or reaganite friends. I'm italian, my grandfather was drafted in the balilla first at 14 and the fascist army later. And his stories of the time were all about the violence, the machismo, the open contempt for the gay, the jewish, any other minorities. That's fascism, no matter if it doesn't match your clinical idea of what fascism should or shouldn't be. And yes, they were as silly and ridiculous as the tiki torches guys or the Jan 6 coup guys. Until they were fully in power. Then everybody stopped laughing, or wondering if they were really dangerous or not. And to be quite honest with you, worry not - I think we'll find very, very soon how close those are compared to US democrats to actual fascists(tm).
- redsid 5y ago
  Ur-fascism essay needs to be a "required" reading - every year in high school and get it debated
- bee_rider 5y ago
  Actually... unless it is from the fascio region of Italy, you can't call it fascism. Otherwise it is just sparkling authoritarianism.
- rank0 5y ago
  Go reread the thread. OP said: > "Strong men" make fascism, not good times. They’re not even referring to any person or distinct group of people. The statement is so overly broad that it could cover BILLIONS of people. You’re making a mockery of the atrocities committed by actual nazis and fascists. You know what those guys did right? You would never tell an Auschwitz survivor: “yeah, the strong males are just like the nazis!” Imagine how fucked up that would feel from their side.
  - noisymemories 5y ago
    As I said in another post, I'm italian, and my grandparents had some direct experience on the matter. Their families were destroyed by nazists and fascists. My grandmother family was jewish, A have a few pictures of her relatives with a number tattoed on their arms. I never dared to ask where or how they got them. No idea how fucked up my gramps were, but by their direct account, yes that "strong males" attitude we're talking about was quite a fascist trait.
    - rank0 5y ago
      You’re not really addressing my point. Wtf does “strong man” even mean? Is every blue collar worker, athlete, law enforcement, first responder, military personnel…etc a fascist to you? Why not go a step further and just say all men are fascist? Are all the food eaters fascist too? I mean all the fascist ate food after all!
goodpoint 5y ago
On the contrary, historic fascism was obsessed with masculinity, strength, nationalism and created an environment of narcissism and cynicism. It's well documented by historians. TheOtherHobbes is using the term correctly. To the naysayers: I recommend you travel and visit museums.
- UnpossibleJim 5y ago
  It's the nationalism, totalitarianism and dictatorial control that make fascism. The obsessions are a means to an end or just quirks by example and do not necessarily fascism make.
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  They were also drinking water every day. That doesn't make water bad. I wish for people to be strong, just like I wish them good health, because it's a quality that makes for a happier life. If one has the strength of character not to be pressured to do bad things, you get less fascists, not more.
- rank0 5y ago
  Really? Did you read the thread? Original comment says: > "Strong men" make fascism, not good times. You’ve brainwashed yourself if you believe “Strong man” = Fascist.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
When the far left calls Trumpists fascist they are generally referring to the far right's current objective of overruling elections and installing a theocratic theocracy under Trump where white males are in charge across the board.
- moduspol 5y ago
  The left was calling him a fascist pretty regularly long before 2020.

I can’t understand what you’re trying to convey. The terms fascist and nazi seem to have lost all meaning nowadays…at least to the far left.

by rank0 5y ago

I can’t understand what you’re trying to convey. The terms fascist and nazi seem to have lost all meaning nowadays…at least to the far left.

_usr1 5y ago

Good god, enough with this "fascist and nazi seem to have lost all meaning" nonsense. Let's call it the "No true fascist fallacy". I could bring the corpse of Himmler here and some people would regurgitate the same "Bu-bu-but that's not actually fascist enough!". OP was basically quoting the definition of Ur-fascism by Umberto Eco. Is that historically accurate enough for you? Or should we check beforehand if whoever he was referring to has ever took part in the Salo republic, before we commit the grave sin of not being taxonomically accurate?

BiteCode_dev 5y ago
Well yes, the Goodwin point is now crossed very casually, just like people are using superlatives for the mundane things, such as "I ate the most amazing fries yesterday". This makes for poor debates, where there is little nuance, fuzzy scales and hardly meaningful communication.
zmgsabst 5y ago
The reason people focus on definitions like “oh, it’s really about toxic masculinity!” is because admitting the truth would make them look bad: Fascism is a collectivist authoritarian system with regulated commerce rather than direct state control, often co-occurring with systemic racism. The reason people don’t want to be honest about the definition is that it’s the platform of modern Democrats, who are gaslighting by calling everyone else a “fascist”: Democrats are collectivist authoritarian. Democrats are pushing for regulated commerce. Democrats are rebuilding systemic racism, from rationing healthcare [2] and government aid [1] based on race to attempting to repeal civil rights laws in WA [4] and CA [3]. Democrats took to the street in acts of arson, violence, and murder to terrorize the public ahead of an election — the modern Brownshirts. [5] Democrats are fascist. Sources: https://nypost.com/2021/06/15/farmers-upset-with-bidens-american-rescue-plan-act/ https://nypost.com/2021/06/15/farmers-upset-with-bidens-amer... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/race-based-covid-rationing-ideology/621405/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/race-based... https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_16,_Repeal_Proposition_209_Affirmative_Action_Amendment_(2020) https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_16,_Repeal_Pr... https://ballotpedia.org/Washington_Initiative_1000,_Affirmative_Action_and_Diversity_Commission_Measure_(2019) https://ballotpedia.org/Washington_Initiative_1000,_Affirmat... https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-what-happened-at-the-chop-shooting-that-killed-a-teenager-and-led-to-the-areas-shutdown/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-wha...
- leereeves 5y ago
  > Fascism is a collectivist authoritarian system with regulated commerce rather than direct state control That's the clearest definition of fascism I've ever heard. Where's it from?
  - zmgsabst 5y ago
    I’m paraphrasing what the fascists said their goals were. If you read about fascism, their proponents viewed it as “Marxism 2.0” — where they could leverage the socialist ideas of collectivist authoritarianism without the problems encountered by the original Marxist revolutionaries with total state control of commerce. A unified populace where “everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.”
    - _0ffh 4y ago
      Quite, one of the biggest influences on fascism was the nationalist wing of the corporatist syndicalists. Mussolini himself said "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power".
- 8note 5y ago
  The Democrats are trying to get rid of government violence via getting rid of police. How is that authoritarian?
- _usr1 5y ago
  I couldn't care less what oblique definition of fascism came out from some american think-tank in the 80s, narrow enough to not anger any of their thatcherian or reaganite friends. I'm italian, my grandfather was drafted in the balilla first at 14 and the fascist army later. And his stories of the time were all about the violence, the machismo, the open contempt for the gay, the jewish, any other minorities. That's fascism, no matter if it doesn't match your clinical idea of what fascism should or shouldn't be. And yes, they were as silly and ridiculous as the tiki torches guys or the Jan 6 coup guys. Until they were fully in power. Then everybody stopped laughing, or wondering if they were really dangerous or not. And to be quite honest with you, worry not - I think we'll find very, very soon how close those are compared to US democrats to actual fascists(tm).
redsid 5y ago
Ur-fascism essay needs to be a "required" reading - every year in high school and get it debated
bee_rider 5y ago
Actually... unless it is from the fascio region of Italy, you can't call it fascism. Otherwise it is just sparkling authoritarianism.
rank0 5y ago
Go reread the thread. OP said: > "Strong men" make fascism, not good times. They’re not even referring to any person or distinct group of people. The statement is so overly broad that it could cover BILLIONS of people. You’re making a mockery of the atrocities committed by actual nazis and fascists. You know what those guys did right? You would never tell an Auschwitz survivor: “yeah, the strong males are just like the nazis!” Imagine how fucked up that would feel from their side.
- noisymemories 5y ago
  As I said in another post, I'm italian, and my grandparents had some direct experience on the matter. Their families were destroyed by nazists and fascists. My grandmother family was jewish, A have a few pictures of her relatives with a number tattoed on their arms. I never dared to ask where or how they got them. No idea how fucked up my gramps were, but by their direct account, yes that "strong males" attitude we're talking about was quite a fascist trait.
  - rank0 5y ago
    You’re not really addressing my point. Wtf does “strong man” even mean? Is every blue collar worker, athlete, law enforcement, first responder, military personnel…etc a fascist to you? Why not go a step further and just say all men are fascist? Are all the food eaters fascist too? I mean all the fascist ate food after all!

goodpoint 5y ago

On the contrary, historic fascism was obsessed with masculinity, strength, nationalism and created an environment of narcissism and cynicism. It's well documented by historians. TheOtherHobbes is using the term correctly. To the naysayers: I recommend you travel and visit museums.

UnpossibleJim 5y ago
It's the nationalism, totalitarianism and dictatorial control that make fascism. The obsessions are a means to an end or just quirks by example and do not necessarily fascism make.
BiteCode_dev 5y ago
They were also drinking water every day. That doesn't make water bad. I wish for people to be strong, just like I wish them good health, because it's a quality that makes for a happier life. If one has the strength of character not to be pressured to do bad things, you get less fascists, not more.
rank0 5y ago
Really? Did you read the thread? Original comment says: > "Strong men" make fascism, not good times. You’ve brainwashed yourself if you believe “Strong man” = Fascist.

stjohnswarts 5y ago

When the far left calls Trumpists fascist they are generally referring to the far right's current objective of overruling elections and installing a theocratic theocracy under Trump where white males are in charge across the board.

moduspol 5y ago
The left was calling him a fascist pretty regularly long before 2020.