7 ms·

https://www.cst.ch/en/what-is-cst/ https://www.cst.ch/en/what-is-cst/ makes it sound as if they're trying to build small-diameter tunnels like the Boring Compan

by Arnt 5y ago

https://www.cst.ch/en/what-is-cst/ https://www.cst.ch/en/what-is-cst/ makes it sound as if they're trying to build small-diameter tunnels like the Boring Company, but using the strengths of the format much more cleverly. The lack of humans means that they can build tunnels with fewer escape routes and almost without regard to ventilation, the centrally coordinated 30km/h speed ought to be cheaper than building for the kinds of speeds one must expect from individual drivers.

aaron695 5y ago
QuarterReptile 5y ago
I think your ventilation notion is wrong because intensive use of this infrastructure will mean many, many electric motors generating heat. There will also be refrigerated cars, furthering the problem. Having said that, I strongly suspect that they've incorporated the ventilation solution already. >they're trying to build small-diameter tunnels like the Boring Company, but using the strengths of the format much more cleverly. Agreed. It's scarcely possible to use tunnels less cleverly than by putting large, single-occupant vehicles through them.
- Arnt 5y ago
  Ventilating well enough to cope with electric motors sounds much less demanding than coping with having both combusion engines and humans in the tunnels. Not to mention letting the humans escape alive in case a vehicle crashes and burns.
  - moralestapia 5y ago
    Yup. "Must be safe for humans" always shifts the costs an order of magnitude.
  - arinlen 5y ago
    > Ventilating well enough to cope with electric motors sounds much less demanding than coping with having both combusion engines and humans in the tunnel. You will always have humans in the tunnel. How do you plan to perform inspections, maintenance, and even emergency support when a cart breaks down and blocks your tunnel?
    - hwillis 5y ago
      The acceptable conditions for "workers in the tunnel performing regular maintenance" and "a continuous stream of random people" are pretty different. Probably >10x less requirement for fresh air when >100x fewer people are breathing it. Ambient humidity might be lower, and even if it isn't the temperature only has to be workable rather than comfortable or at ambient. Worst case, you could shut everything down and let it cool off before sending people in. Certain emergencies would also be much easier to handle without people, like nitrogen purging a fire. Realistically I don't think you'd want to shut down the whole tunnel and wait for hours when you need to fix a problem, but it might work if there aren't many problems. It might work for routine maintenance if it's utilized like most packing facilities- deliveries go out in waves, with packing etc in between.
    - robonerd 5y ago
      > How do you plan to perform inspections, maintenance, and even emergency support when a cart breaks down and blocks your tunnel? With pigs of course. Not the ones that go oink though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigging
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    The London Underground actually has a heat problem despite using electric propulsion. Most of the heat in that situation comes from braking.
    - senortumnus 5y ago
      Interesting - I have noticed a distinct warmth in a deep station or two (ones with a huge escalator) while traveling there but assumed it was ground heat or something. TIL!
    - panick21_ 5y ago
      Wouldn't individual pods break by using the electric motor to charging the battery? I assume the London Underground can't use that method.
      - Arnt 5y ago
        It can and does, but that doesn't recover 100% of the brake energy. The Underground will still heat its surroundings, just by less than it did until recently.
- Valgrim 5y ago
  I'm not sure heat is such a problem. The movement of the cargo provides ample ventilation, the surrounding soil has a great thermal mass, and in the worst case it's easier to pump coolant through a pipe than to ensure a breathable, non-toxic atmosphere at all time.
- hwillis 5y ago
  a 95% efficient electric motor is still creating 15x less heat than a diesel engine, and zero carbon dioxide. Traffic will carry out hot air, heat will leave through the tunnel walls, and convection will also carry out heat. At the very least it is a MUCH less relevant issue.
  - koolba 5y ago
    And any cargo container that requires stricter temperature tolerances itself be better insulated and refrigerated. That’s already how standard containers pulled by 18-wheelers operate.
    - hwillis 5y ago
      OP's point with refrigerated containers is that they are large sources of heat (since creating a cold volume heats up the external volume by a larger amount), not that they are more vulnerable to heat in the tunnel.
      - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
        Only if they run their heat pumps inside the tunnel. If they pre-chill and coast through the tunnel they'd extract heat. Overall it seems like a non problem with many solutions if any are actually needed.
- panick21_ 5y ago
  People act like Boring tunnel are designed to only ever allow single Tesla threw. They did that because Tesla are available for them quickly. Do you really think those peope are to stupid to understand that higher occupency can increase threwput?
snickerbockers 5y ago
what happens when something goes wrong (or just needs scheduled maintenance) and they have to send a team down to work on it? are the workers going to need scuba gear to breathe?
- jcrawfordor 5y ago
  My guess would be portable ventilation equipment - already commonly used for maintenance access to underground utility infrastructure. They will probably need to provide access to the tunnels from above at reasonably frequent intervals for maintenance access (e.g. to "unstick" disabled vehicles) but since these wouldn't be used for evacuation of more than a small number of people requirements would be very relaxed. The same accesses would serve to run blower ducts when work is being performed, and workers would wear gas monitors. This is all pretty standard for telecoms tunnels, sewers, etc. Safety evacuation requirements are also easier to meet when you limit tunnel access to a trained workforce under a permit system, compared to a situation where you have the general public in the tunnels. Emergency rebreathers, for example, can become part of your plan. A higher level of safety can be assured for workers since a permit system means that a control center will have positive accountability of everyone in harm's way.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    Exactly. Miners have an elaborate safety setup that doesn't have to be anywhere near what passenger tunnels have, because the miners can be trained and react to the situations as necessary, whereas the best you can hope for passengers is they remember the safety briefing and how to exit the vehicle quickly.
    - bobthepanda 5y ago
      Also, miners can be told to wait in a safety area with supplies stocked for the very predictable amount of miners, and so can go a longer without extraction. Obviously you still want to extract them as quickly as possible but it’s easier to manage.
- hwillis 5y ago
arinlen 5y ago
> https://www.cst.ch/en/what-is-cst/ https://www.cst.ch/en/what-is-cst/ makes it sound as if they're trying to build small-diameter tunnels like the Boring Company, but using the strengths of the format much more cleverly. This is ancient technology, literally over a century old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Post_Office_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Post_Office_Railway No need to name-drop the Boring Company, as it's just a marketing company who bought a COTS tunneler. Nothing that this company presented was novel. The critical aspect of putting together an railway network through tunnels is a) it's collosal construction and maintenance costs, b) property rights. The numbers of putting together a tunnel network hardly add up, and ultimately projects fail because there is no way to make the numbers work unless you expect to fleece local and central governments. It's also quite strange that CST's marketing brochure does not mention at all two of the main solutions to p2p logistics in urban environment: hub and spoke model with the last mile delivered with small electric cars/scooters/bicycles (Amazon already employs this heavily), and drones.
- jhgb 5y ago
  > as it's just a marketing company who bought a COTS tunneler. You mean a marketing company that built their own tunneler, surely. The one they originally bought isn't being used anymore, as far as I know.
  - robonerd 5y ago
    They have two now apparently, one in California and one in Texas. But public information on these is sparse, I've not been able to find out much about them. This seems uncharacteristic for an Elon Musk company; Musk and SpaceX talk at length about their rockets for instance. There is a different level of public interest between rockets and boring, which might explain why there is more public information about the rockets. Still, I'm not surprised people are skeptical (or ignorant to the existence) of these bores.
    - sandworm101 5y ago
      >> There is a different level of public interest between rockets and boring Or the simple practicalities of the later. I'm a member of the public. What I know of the boring project comes from the youtube videos of the traffic jams in the current Vegas tesla tunnel project. Building an underground tunnel to bypass above-ground traffic problems worked only on the Simpsons (Stonecutter episode). In the real world such tunnels are just another 1-lane road subject to all the same problems as they would on the surface, plus a bunch of bonus problems. It isn't interesting because it isn't practical.
numtel 5y ago
It's closer to what Magway is doing in Britain https://www.magway.com/ https://www.magway.com/

by Arnt 5y ago

aaron695 5y ago

QuarterReptile 5y ago

I think your ventilation notion is wrong because intensive use of this infrastructure will mean many, many electric motors generating heat. There will also be refrigerated cars, furthering the problem. Having said that, I strongly suspect that they've incorporated the ventilation solution already. >they're trying to build small-diameter tunnels like the Boring Company, but using the strengths of the format much more cleverly. Agreed. It's scarcely possible to use tunnels less cleverly than by putting large, single-occupant vehicles through them.

Arnt 5y ago
Ventilating well enough to cope with electric motors sounds much less demanding than coping with having both combusion engines and humans in the tunnels. Not to mention letting the humans escape alive in case a vehicle crashes and burns.
- moralestapia 5y ago
  Yup. "Must be safe for humans" always shifts the costs an order of magnitude.
- arinlen 5y ago
  > Ventilating well enough to cope with electric motors sounds much less demanding than coping with having both combusion engines and humans in the tunnel. You will always have humans in the tunnel. How do you plan to perform inspections, maintenance, and even emergency support when a cart breaks down and blocks your tunnel?
  - hwillis 5y ago
    The acceptable conditions for "workers in the tunnel performing regular maintenance" and "a continuous stream of random people" are pretty different. Probably >10x less requirement for fresh air when >100x fewer people are breathing it. Ambient humidity might be lower, and even if it isn't the temperature only has to be workable rather than comfortable or at ambient. Worst case, you could shut everything down and let it cool off before sending people in. Certain emergencies would also be much easier to handle without people, like nitrogen purging a fire. Realistically I don't think you'd want to shut down the whole tunnel and wait for hours when you need to fix a problem, but it might work if there aren't many problems. It might work for routine maintenance if it's utilized like most packing facilities- deliveries go out in waves, with packing etc in between.
  - robonerd 5y ago
    > How do you plan to perform inspections, maintenance, and even emergency support when a cart breaks down and blocks your tunnel? With pigs of course. Not the ones that go oink though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigging
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  The London Underground actually has a heat problem despite using electric propulsion. Most of the heat in that situation comes from braking.
  - senortumnus 5y ago
    Interesting - I have noticed a distinct warmth in a deep station or two (ones with a huge escalator) while traveling there but assumed it was ground heat or something. TIL!
  - panick21_ 5y ago
    Wouldn't individual pods break by using the electric motor to charging the battery? I assume the London Underground can't use that method.
    - Arnt 5y ago
      It can and does, but that doesn't recover 100% of the brake energy. The Underground will still heat its surroundings, just by less than it did until recently.
Valgrim 5y ago
I'm not sure heat is such a problem. The movement of the cargo provides ample ventilation, the surrounding soil has a great thermal mass, and in the worst case it's easier to pump coolant through a pipe than to ensure a breathable, non-toxic atmosphere at all time.
hwillis 5y ago
a 95% efficient electric motor is still creating 15x less heat than a diesel engine, and zero carbon dioxide. Traffic will carry out hot air, heat will leave through the tunnel walls, and convection will also carry out heat. At the very least it is a MUCH less relevant issue.
- koolba 5y ago
  And any cargo container that requires stricter temperature tolerances itself be better insulated and refrigerated. That’s already how standard containers pulled by 18-wheelers operate.
  - hwillis 5y ago
    OP's point with refrigerated containers is that they are large sources of heat (since creating a cold volume heats up the external volume by a larger amount), not that they are more vulnerable to heat in the tunnel.
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      Only if they run their heat pumps inside the tunnel. If they pre-chill and coast through the tunnel they'd extract heat. Overall it seems like a non problem with many solutions if any are actually needed.
panick21_ 5y ago
People act like Boring tunnel are designed to only ever allow single Tesla threw. They did that because Tesla are available for them quickly. Do you really think those peope are to stupid to understand that higher occupency can increase threwput?

snickerbockers 5y ago

what happens when something goes wrong (or just needs scheduled maintenance) and they have to send a team down to work on it? are the workers going to need scuba gear to breathe?

jcrawfordor 5y ago
My guess would be portable ventilation equipment - already commonly used for maintenance access to underground utility infrastructure. They will probably need to provide access to the tunnels from above at reasonably frequent intervals for maintenance access (e.g. to "unstick" disabled vehicles) but since these wouldn't be used for evacuation of more than a small number of people requirements would be very relaxed. The same accesses would serve to run blower ducts when work is being performed, and workers would wear gas monitors. This is all pretty standard for telecoms tunnels, sewers, etc. Safety evacuation requirements are also easier to meet when you limit tunnel access to a trained workforce under a permit system, compared to a situation where you have the general public in the tunnels. Emergency rebreathers, for example, can become part of your plan. A higher level of safety can be assured for workers since a permit system means that a control center will have positive accountability of everyone in harm's way.
- bombcar 5y ago
  Exactly. Miners have an elaborate safety setup that doesn't have to be anywhere near what passenger tunnels have, because the miners can be trained and react to the situations as necessary, whereas the best you can hope for passengers is they remember the safety briefing and how to exit the vehicle quickly.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    Also, miners can be told to wait in a safety area with supplies stocked for the very predictable amount of miners, and so can go a longer without extraction. Obviously you still want to extract them as quickly as possible but it’s easier to manage.
hwillis 5y ago

arinlen 5y ago

> https://www.cst.ch/en/what-is-cst/ https://www.cst.ch/en/what-is-cst/ makes it sound as if they're trying to build small-diameter tunnels like the Boring Company, but using the strengths of the format much more cleverly. This is ancient technology, literally over a century old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Post_Office_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Post_Office_Railway No need to name-drop the Boring Company, as it's just a marketing company who bought a COTS tunneler. Nothing that this company presented was novel. The critical aspect of putting together an railway network through tunnels is a) it's collosal construction and maintenance costs, b) property rights. The numbers of putting together a tunnel network hardly add up, and ultimately projects fail because there is no way to make the numbers work unless you expect to fleece local and central governments. It's also quite strange that CST's marketing brochure does not mention at all two of the main solutions to p2p logistics in urban environment: hub and spoke model with the last mile delivered with small electric cars/scooters/bicycles (Amazon already employs this heavily), and drones.

jhgb 5y ago
> as it's just a marketing company who bought a COTS tunneler. You mean a marketing company that built their own tunneler, surely. The one they originally bought isn't being used anymore, as far as I know.
- robonerd 5y ago
  They have two now apparently, one in California and one in Texas. But public information on these is sparse, I've not been able to find out much about them. This seems uncharacteristic for an Elon Musk company; Musk and SpaceX talk at length about their rockets for instance. There is a different level of public interest between rockets and boring, which might explain why there is more public information about the rockets. Still, I'm not surprised people are skeptical (or ignorant to the existence) of these bores.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    >> There is a different level of public interest between rockets and boring Or the simple practicalities of the later. I'm a member of the public. What I know of the boring project comes from the youtube videos of the traffic jams in the current Vegas tesla tunnel project. Building an underground tunnel to bypass above-ground traffic problems worked only on the Simpsons (Stonecutter episode). In the real world such tunnels are just another 1-lane road subject to all the same problems as they would on the surface, plus a bunch of bonus problems. It isn't interesting because it isn't practical.

numtel 5y ago

It's closer to what Magway is doing in Britain https://www.magway.com/ https://www.magway.com/