4 ms·

Big cities are by nature cosmopolitan, it’s very strange to say only some people “belong” and others don’t. Would you prefer the world isolate into pockets of b

Big cities are by nature cosmopolitan, it’s very strange to say only some people “belong” and others don’t. Would you prefer the world isolate into pockets of belonging based on generational inheritance as it has been and we crank back globalization? Certainly there are growing pains, but I would view more globalization as the direction we want to go.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> Big cities are by nature cosmopolitan but most rich tech workers, especially from US, especially from SV, are not. It's time to accept it. We don't want them. Not at this rate, not at these (their) conditions. They only bring problems. One thing is immigrants coming to work, another thing entirely is people that go somewhere because "it's cheap" or "it's beautiful" but work and pay taxes elsewhere. They also have the habit of paying more than the average prices, so housing becomes more expensive, activities have to pay higher rents to survive or adapt to the kind of entertainment that the "new people" like, which is more often than not not what they wanted to do, people that used to live near their workplace had to move elsewhere because they could not afford to live in the district anymore, they end up closing shops and move their activities elsewhere (people like to have a life, besides work and commute) disrupting the life of many other that used to go there. So when these people start buying drugs, dealers compete for their money and criminality rate increase. Last but not least, not being part of the community makes them detached. This[1] had never happened before Americans invaded Trastevere. Of course this is in general, individually people are perfectly fine, but this trend is killing the fabric of cities with centuries of history, for nothing. Cosmpolitan it's not synonym for "colony". [1] https://www.thelocal.it/20220210/us-tourists-serving-life-for-police-stabbing-in-italy-start-appeal/ https://www.thelocal.it/20220210/us-tourists-serving-life-fo...
- chronofar 4y ago
  > Cosmpolitan it's not synonym for "colony". Of course it's not, but characterizing tech workers in foreign cities as "colonizing" makes little sense, even if the various problems you're pointing to can be laid entirely at their feet (which, without knowing enough about Rome to have a high degree of confidence, I would suspect is inaccurate, you could just as easily be describing general gentrification which has good and bad components). All in all this attitude seems to me to be more or less typical NIMBY-ism, just with a focus on tech workers likely due to your purview (we're on hackernews after all). And to be sure NIMBY-ism is not usually without good reason, it's absolutely a worthwhile and reasonable goal to preserve culture you hold as valuable, and indeed in the case of Rome there is some very special culture there worth preserving. But it should be noted that change is inevitable, and cultural isolation is not a reasonable way to accomplish this goal conducive to the kind of world we want to have (or I should say I want to have, highly mobile and integrated so your origins have little bearing on your potential trajectories, much more unified than it is today as a species rather than provincial squabbling). Rather we want solutions wherein people can move freely and be accepted wherever they go, while also preserving cultures and spreading economic benefits in a more efficient way. For instance better taxation so nomads pay taxes where they are not where they're from.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Cosmpolitan it's not synonym for "colony". Cosmopolitanism is historically largely a consequence of colonialism, and the draw of labor (both cheap mass and elite skilled) from the peripheries to the core.
- gowld 4y ago
  > pay taxes elsewhere That's only because your community refuses to tax the visitors. > They also have the habit of paying more than the average prices then they are in fact paying taxes (or paying locals -- skipping the government middle-person) to the community. > This[1] had never happened before Americans invaded Trastevere. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/travel/taking-a-bite-out-of-crime-in-rome.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/travel/taking-a-bite-out-... "Earlier this year, a report by the president of Rome’s Appeals Court, Giorgio Santacroce, found that criminal organizations essentially have divided up the capital into areas under their control." https://abcnews.go.com/International/trial-opens-2016-death-us-student-beau-solomon/story?id=55009854 https://abcnews.go.com/International/trial-opens-2016-death-... > Trial opens in 2016 death of US student Beau Solomon found dead in Rome > An Italian homeless man is accused of killing the 19-year-old student. > Prior to his death, Solomon was allegedly robbed and assaulted, just hours after arriving in Rome for a study-abroad semester.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > That's only because your community refuses to tax the visitors. no, that's because they come here with a tourist permit and hide from authorities. And if some problem arise, they go crying to their embassy. > then they are in fact paying taxes (or paying locals -- skipping the government middle-person) to the community. you mean they are skipping the community by paying some greedy multi-building-owner-speculator or mega-supermarket-chain and not giving back to the community in the form of taxes that pay for: hospitals, schools, police, roads, road cleaning, etc. etc. You know, everything is public here, taxes pay for it, no matter if you're rich or poor, you get the same medical care here. That's why we don't want them. They completely disregard what's important for us, which is giving back to the people, not to the rich. I've seen many of these people complaining that in the city center there are homeless living close to the historical monuments, while we people living in those neighborhoods have know them forever, they are part of the community, we give them food, shelter, blanket for the winter, call an ambulance if they are sick or it rained too much and they don't know where to spend the night. That's the difference and what people like you don't and won't ever understand. We are different from you, but you're coming to our house, so you are the ones that should adapt, not us! > "Earlier this year, a report by the president of Rome’s Appeals Court, Giorgio Santacroce, found that criminal organizations essentially have divided up the capital into areas under their control." Lol, you don't even know what you're talking about! [1] He's been acquitted for that murder. And you are comparing an homeless with mental health problems with 2 rich American students on holiday who *stabbed to death an Italian POLICE OFFICER WHILE BUYING COCAINE ON THE SREETS* ... That says a lot about what you think about Americans, LOL. Now compare it this, "Italian student was stabbed to death Thursday evening not far from the campus of the elite New York university, the dean said Friday."[2] ot to this "Twenty people were killed when a United States Marine Corps EA-6B Prowler aircraft, flying too low and against regulations, in order for the pilots to "have fun" and "take videos of the scenery", cut a cable supporting a cable car of an aerial lift" [3] In the meantime, in NY there have been 485 homicides in 2021, in the whole Italy, 59 million of people, "only" 276. We don't want that violent behaviour here. Get over it. [1] https://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2020/12/02/homeless-man-acquittal-in-beau-solomon-death-upheld_e8ce2e85-2845-405f-8032-0d7182eaa6ea.html https://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2020/12/02/hom... [2] https://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2021/12/03/columbia-university-italian-student-stabbed-to-death_222288e1-66d3-48a9-8954-07903316f452.html https://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2021/12/03/col... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Cavalese_cable_car_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Cavalese_cable_car_crash
- TheGigaChad 4y ago
bombcar 4y ago
The problem is that people move to Rome because it is Rome and not LA, and then proceed to turn it into LA. Even a hundred years ago traveling somewhere brought you to a very different world, now it's hard to tell the difference between some cities since they're all covered in McDonald's and Starbucks anyway. And it's not just the companies, either. Part of the problem is our American way-of-life covers everything in a think blanket; you can easily move to anywhere in the world and remain an American as long as you want, the pressures that would bring you more in-line with those who live there are almost entirely gone.
- chronofar 4y ago
  I too lament some of the homogeneity of culture brought about by globalization. But I think the benefits are well worth it. Indeed in the future I would expect (or hope) for people to feel as though they are world citizens, and never feel too far from home wherever they go. The world gets smaller as we integrate it, and though we’ll lose remnants of the past I think it is the only way we can hope to have a future.
boredumb 4y ago
It's only bad if it's Americans moving abroad, it's actually racist and/or fascist and/or xenophobic if Americans complain about foreigners moving to their cities legally or otherwise and not adapting culturally.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  It's bad when the power imbalance favours foreigners over locals. There's nothing bad with Americans coming here, I love them, but there's a particular kind of people that don't integrate and think that having much more money than the average puts them in charge. I've made some example about tech workers from USA because they are the larger and richer group I know of and it's crystal clear that most of them aren't here to make the city better or become citizens. Also they are the ones who send their kids to "study abroad", but here you can drink when you are 16 or older, you can imagine what happens when you put young people with a lot of money in their pickets in a place where the rules of their country do not apply and the police is friendly (meaning they usually do not carry guns with them and don't arrest you for being drunk). But it's not only them, of course and I'm sorry if I made it look like that.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> Big cities are by nature cosmopolitan but most rich tech workers, especially from US, especially from SV, are not. It's time to accept it. We don't want them. Not at this rate, not at these (their) conditions. They only bring problems. One thing is immigrants coming to work, another thing entirely is people that go somewhere because "it's cheap" or "it's beautiful" but work and pay taxes elsewhere. They also have the habit of paying more than the average prices, so housing becomes more expensive, activities have to pay higher rents to survive or adapt to the kind of entertainment that the "new people" like, which is more often than not not what they wanted to do, people that used to live near their workplace had to move elsewhere because they could not afford to live in the district anymore, they end up closing shops and move their activities elsewhere (people like to have a life, besides work and commute) disrupting the life of many other that used to go there. So when these people start buying drugs, dealers compete for their money and criminality rate increase. Last but not least, not being part of the community makes them detached. This[1] had never happened before Americans invaded Trastevere. Of course this is in general, individually people are perfectly fine, but this trend is killing the fabric of cities with centuries of history, for nothing. Cosmpolitan it's not synonym for "colony". [1] https://www.thelocal.it/20220210/us-tourists-serving-life-for-police-stabbing-in-italy-start-appeal/ https://www.thelocal.it/20220210/us-tourists-serving-life-fo...

chronofar 4y ago
> Cosmpolitan it's not synonym for "colony". Of course it's not, but characterizing tech workers in foreign cities as "colonizing" makes little sense, even if the various problems you're pointing to can be laid entirely at their feet (which, without knowing enough about Rome to have a high degree of confidence, I would suspect is inaccurate, you could just as easily be describing general gentrification which has good and bad components). All in all this attitude seems to me to be more or less typical NIMBY-ism, just with a focus on tech workers likely due to your purview (we're on hackernews after all). And to be sure NIMBY-ism is not usually without good reason, it's absolutely a worthwhile and reasonable goal to preserve culture you hold as valuable, and indeed in the case of Rome there is some very special culture there worth preserving. But it should be noted that change is inevitable, and cultural isolation is not a reasonable way to accomplish this goal conducive to the kind of world we want to have (or I should say I want to have, highly mobile and integrated so your origins have little bearing on your potential trajectories, much more unified than it is today as a species rather than provincial squabbling). Rather we want solutions wherein people can move freely and be accepted wherever they go, while also preserving cultures and spreading economic benefits in a more efficient way. For instance better taxation so nomads pay taxes where they are not where they're from.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Cosmpolitan it's not synonym for "colony". Cosmopolitanism is historically largely a consequence of colonialism, and the draw of labor (both cheap mass and elite skilled) from the peripheries to the core.
gowld 4y ago
> pay taxes elsewhere That's only because your community refuses to tax the visitors. > They also have the habit of paying more than the average prices then they are in fact paying taxes (or paying locals -- skipping the government middle-person) to the community. > This[1] had never happened before Americans invaded Trastevere. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/travel/taking-a-bite-out-of-crime-in-rome.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/travel/taking-a-bite-out-... "Earlier this year, a report by the president of Rome’s Appeals Court, Giorgio Santacroce, found that criminal organizations essentially have divided up the capital into areas under their control." https://abcnews.go.com/International/trial-opens-2016-death-us-student-beau-solomon/story?id=55009854 https://abcnews.go.com/International/trial-opens-2016-death-... > Trial opens in 2016 death of US student Beau Solomon found dead in Rome > An Italian homeless man is accused of killing the 19-year-old student. > Prior to his death, Solomon was allegedly robbed and assaulted, just hours after arriving in Rome for a study-abroad semester.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > That's only because your community refuses to tax the visitors. no, that's because they come here with a tourist permit and hide from authorities. And if some problem arise, they go crying to their embassy. > then they are in fact paying taxes (or paying locals -- skipping the government middle-person) to the community. you mean they are skipping the community by paying some greedy multi-building-owner-speculator or mega-supermarket-chain and not giving back to the community in the form of taxes that pay for: hospitals, schools, police, roads, road cleaning, etc. etc. You know, everything is public here, taxes pay for it, no matter if you're rich or poor, you get the same medical care here. That's why we don't want them. They completely disregard what's important for us, which is giving back to the people, not to the rich. I've seen many of these people complaining that in the city center there are homeless living close to the historical monuments, while we people living in those neighborhoods have know them forever, they are part of the community, we give them food, shelter, blanket for the winter, call an ambulance if they are sick or it rained too much and they don't know where to spend the night. That's the difference and what people like you don't and won't ever understand. We are different from you, but you're coming to our house, so you are the ones that should adapt, not us! > "Earlier this year, a report by the president of Rome’s Appeals Court, Giorgio Santacroce, found that criminal organizations essentially have divided up the capital into areas under their control." Lol, you don't even know what you're talking about! [1] He's been acquitted for that murder. And you are comparing an homeless with mental health problems with 2 rich American students on holiday who *stabbed to death an Italian POLICE OFFICER WHILE BUYING COCAINE ON THE SREETS* ... That says a lot about what you think about Americans, LOL. Now compare it this, "Italian student was stabbed to death Thursday evening not far from the campus of the elite New York university, the dean said Friday."[2] ot to this "Twenty people were killed when a United States Marine Corps EA-6B Prowler aircraft, flying too low and against regulations, in order for the pilots to "have fun" and "take videos of the scenery", cut a cable supporting a cable car of an aerial lift" [3] In the meantime, in NY there have been 485 homicides in 2021, in the whole Italy, 59 million of people, "only" 276. We don't want that violent behaviour here. Get over it. [1] https://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2020/12/02/homeless-man-acquittal-in-beau-solomon-death-upheld_e8ce2e85-2845-405f-8032-0d7182eaa6ea.html https://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2020/12/02/hom... [2] https://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2021/12/03/columbia-university-italian-student-stabbed-to-death_222288e1-66d3-48a9-8954-07903316f452.html https://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2021/12/03/col... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Cavalese_cable_car_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Cavalese_cable_car_crash
TheGigaChad 4y ago

bombcar 4y ago

The problem is that people move to Rome because it is Rome and not LA, and then proceed to turn it into LA. Even a hundred years ago traveling somewhere brought you to a very different world, now it's hard to tell the difference between some cities since they're all covered in McDonald's and Starbucks anyway. And it's not just the companies, either. Part of the problem is our American way-of-life covers everything in a think blanket; you can easily move to anywhere in the world and remain an American as long as you want, the pressures that would bring you more in-line with those who live there are almost entirely gone.

chronofar 4y ago
I too lament some of the homogeneity of culture brought about by globalization. But I think the benefits are well worth it. Indeed in the future I would expect (or hope) for people to feel as though they are world citizens, and never feel too far from home wherever they go. The world gets smaller as we integrate it, and though we’ll lose remnants of the past I think it is the only way we can hope to have a future.

boredumb 4y ago

It's only bad if it's Americans moving abroad, it's actually racist and/or fascist and/or xenophobic if Americans complain about foreigners moving to their cities legally or otherwise and not adapting culturally.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
It's bad when the power imbalance favours foreigners over locals. There's nothing bad with Americans coming here, I love them, but there's a particular kind of people that don't integrate and think that having much more money than the average puts them in charge. I've made some example about tech workers from USA because they are the larger and richer group I know of and it's crystal clear that most of them aren't here to make the city better or become citizens. Also they are the ones who send their kids to "study abroad", but here you can drink when you are 16 or older, you can imagine what happens when you put young people with a lot of money in their pickets in a place where the rules of their country do not apply and the police is friendly (meaning they usually do not carry guns with them and don't arrest you for being drunk). But it's not only them, of course and I'm sorry if I made it look like that.