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Many others have chimed in, but this is very important to highlight. Meeting with clients, going to conference, having important meetings, these are things we c

Many others have chimed in, but this is very important to highlight. Meeting with clients, going to conference, having important meetings, these are things we consider work. However, from the eyes of the law, these are temporary things that need to be done in person for business that has already occurred. That is, if you come to a conference, meet a potential client, and then set up a sales meeting before you leave, you have conducted new business in the US and violated your B1 visa. See [1] for the actual exemptions. Technically, if you check your email while on B1, this could be construed that you are conducting unauthorized business in the US. Of course, these laws never foresaw technological progress and so the world governments look the other way because they do not know how/what to enforce. I'm going to put it here as this is what an immigration person put it to me, just ask yourself "where are my feet?" That is the country/entity you should be paying your taxes to by default unless there is an explicit reciprocity agreement that may apply to you. So, if you're traveling Europe as an American while working remotely, you are violating tax law in every single country. From the law's point of view, there is no difference than as if you had contracted out your work to someone in each one of those countries. Don't worry, no one is going to come after you for those 10 hours but just know you are intentionally (or grossly negligent) making use of the inaction of enforcement. [1] - https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary-visitors-for-business/b-1-temporary-business-visitor https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...

bell-cot 4y ago
> ...Of course, these laws never foresaw technological progress and so the world governments look the other way because they do not know how/what to enforce... Other than the current scale of activity, the law has no "never foresaw technolo..." excuse for failing to cover such things. Centuries ago, it was perfectly normal for authors, composers, painters, etc. to travel to and work in other countries - "for their health" as they worked on their next masterpiece, or for inspiration, or to give paid lectures, or to perform or conduct music, or to paint portraits of locals, or several of those things. It'd be rather interesting if a lawyer or few (who were fond of dusty tomes) did some real research on how those activities were handled back in the day, the old case law, etc.
- hervature 4y ago
  I'm not sure I agree. With computers, people can literally teleport around the world which would have been ridiculed even 50 years ago. Probably something like "Haha, you think one day you'll be able to reach into the telephone and fix the thing on the other side, haha". I think it is an open question whether or not a sysadmin working on servers around the world is any different than paying the sysadmin to travel to each server and work locally while continuing to work on the global servers. The former is fine whereas the latter would legally require work authorization in each country.
  - bell-cot 4y ago
    Let's say it's 1937, and I'm a successful author enjoying life at a hotel in Italy. And writing my latest novel. Mailing chapter-by-chapter draft copies of that back and forth with my literary agent in London. Occasionally calling that agent on the (then-expensive) telephone with both questions, and instructions for him to execute on my behalf. Occasionally calling editors at various publishers (perhaps in several countries) to discuss business. Or to argue about how they destroyed the beautiful cadence of my dialog in Chapter 8 of my prior novel. Maybe I send telegrams to another agent I employ in New York, asking questions and giving instruction. The modern, computerized version of this is faster, cooler, and sexier - but (IANAL) I see little basis for saying that there's a legal difference in kind.
    - hervature 4y ago
      The example you give is a clear violation, both in the past and the present. The author's feet are clearly in Italy and hence subject to Italian taxation (unless reciprocity agreement). That's not up for debate. This corresponds to the "latter" option I proposed before where the sysadmin travels around. This we are definitely aligned. Upon reflection, I should not have said "an open question". Rather, I should have said that many feel that the spirit and intent of the law should be revisited. For many, the feet test is about resources utilization. Using electricity, internet, housing, etc. In the author example, the author is clearly making a choice to live at that hotel. Back when the law was written, I think this would have covered most cases. However, now, the modal case are "digital nomads" where the normal thing is to not spend more than 1 week - 1 month in a single place. Oftentimes, the destination doesn't matter, but the journey. In the extreme, imagine spending 2 days in every country in the world, in perpetual motion. This has always been a possibility and the law covers this case (as we both know) but I think people are beginning to question if it makes sense given the new distribution brought by the internet. To come back to the sysadmin example, the point was that the sysadmin is utilizing the same global resources except for maybe an additional epsilon as they move around to the different localities. Many feel that the locality does not provide anything in return for the right to tax the income.
schrodinger 4y ago
There must be some exception to this. I am a US citizen working for a London company and a few times a year I go over, explicitly telling the immigration officer it's for "business meetings," and that's explicitly allowed. I couldn't just go work for the hell of it but as a manager of a team it makes sense I make special occasion trips. Technically they could ask me to produce a letter from my employer explicitly confirming the reason for my travel but I've never had any friction at all. But my company was very explicit that I explain it's for "business meetings" and not regular work.
- throwawayboise 4y ago
  There are exceptions of some sort for meetings and conferences.
- hervature 4y ago
  Yes, business meetings (and the things in this spirit) are the exceptions. However, you certainly cannot say "I feel like doing my normal job in London this week". Now, let's say you go to London for one important meeting and spend the rest of the day working as you don't want to waste your time, ok, no one is going to ask questions. But, if you go to London for one meeting and work there for the rest of the month, you are in clear violation. Is anyone going to hunt you down? Probably not. Are you breaking the intent of business visas? Definitely.

bell-cot 4y ago

> ...Of course, these laws never foresaw technological progress and so the world governments look the other way because they do not know how/what to enforce... Other than the current scale of activity, the law has no "never foresaw technolo..." excuse for failing to cover such things. Centuries ago, it was perfectly normal for authors, composers, painters, etc. to travel to and work in other countries - "for their health" as they worked on their next masterpiece, or for inspiration, or to give paid lectures, or to perform or conduct music, or to paint portraits of locals, or several of those things. It'd be rather interesting if a lawyer or few (who were fond of dusty tomes) did some real research on how those activities were handled back in the day, the old case law, etc.

hervature 4y ago
I'm not sure I agree. With computers, people can literally teleport around the world which would have been ridiculed even 50 years ago. Probably something like "Haha, you think one day you'll be able to reach into the telephone and fix the thing on the other side, haha". I think it is an open question whether or not a sysadmin working on servers around the world is any different than paying the sysadmin to travel to each server and work locally while continuing to work on the global servers. The former is fine whereas the latter would legally require work authorization in each country.
- bell-cot 4y ago
  Let's say it's 1937, and I'm a successful author enjoying life at a hotel in Italy. And writing my latest novel. Mailing chapter-by-chapter draft copies of that back and forth with my literary agent in London. Occasionally calling that agent on the (then-expensive) telephone with both questions, and instructions for him to execute on my behalf. Occasionally calling editors at various publishers (perhaps in several countries) to discuss business. Or to argue about how they destroyed the beautiful cadence of my dialog in Chapter 8 of my prior novel. Maybe I send telegrams to another agent I employ in New York, asking questions and giving instruction. The modern, computerized version of this is faster, cooler, and sexier - but (IANAL) I see little basis for saying that there's a legal difference in kind.
  - hervature 4y ago
    The example you give is a clear violation, both in the past and the present. The author's feet are clearly in Italy and hence subject to Italian taxation (unless reciprocity agreement). That's not up for debate. This corresponds to the "latter" option I proposed before where the sysadmin travels around. This we are definitely aligned. Upon reflection, I should not have said "an open question". Rather, I should have said that many feel that the spirit and intent of the law should be revisited. For many, the feet test is about resources utilization. Using electricity, internet, housing, etc. In the author example, the author is clearly making a choice to live at that hotel. Back when the law was written, I think this would have covered most cases. However, now, the modal case are "digital nomads" where the normal thing is to not spend more than 1 week - 1 month in a single place. Oftentimes, the destination doesn't matter, but the journey. In the extreme, imagine spending 2 days in every country in the world, in perpetual motion. This has always been a possibility and the law covers this case (as we both know) but I think people are beginning to question if it makes sense given the new distribution brought by the internet. To come back to the sysadmin example, the point was that the sysadmin is utilizing the same global resources except for maybe an additional epsilon as they move around to the different localities. Many feel that the locality does not provide anything in return for the right to tax the income.

schrodinger 4y ago

There must be some exception to this. I am a US citizen working for a London company and a few times a year I go over, explicitly telling the immigration officer it's for "business meetings," and that's explicitly allowed. I couldn't just go work for the hell of it but as a manager of a team it makes sense I make special occasion trips. Technically they could ask me to produce a letter from my employer explicitly confirming the reason for my travel but I've never had any friction at all. But my company was very explicit that I explain it's for "business meetings" and not regular work.

throwawayboise 4y ago
There are exceptions of some sort for meetings and conferences.
hervature 4y ago
Yes, business meetings (and the things in this spirit) are the exceptions. However, you certainly cannot say "I feel like doing my normal job in London this week". Now, let's say you go to London for one important meeting and spend the rest of the day working as you don't want to waste your time, ok, no one is going to ask questions. But, if you go to London for one meeting and work there for the rest of the month, you are in clear violation. Is anyone going to hunt you down? Probably not. Are you breaking the intent of business visas? Definitely.