5 ms·

Well now you can argue that crypto also has actual industrial and other uses, they just shadow the most of the trading volume which is all about speculation and

Well now you can argue that crypto also has actual industrial and other uses, they just shadow the most of the trading volume which is all about speculation and money laundering

dTal 4y ago
You can argue that, fallaciously. What's a bitcoin good for? You can't make it into anything else. Cryptography is useful, yes, as an abstract framework. That's not what's under discussion. Buying bitcoin is not the same as investing in cryptography research.
- eimrine 4y ago
  What is investing in cryptography research? Paying to some guy having some interesting whitepapers and that is it?
  - dTal 4y ago
    I don't know, I guess. "The academic field of cryptography" is much more abstract than "a lump of gold". My point was more about what bitcoin isn't - specifically, it isn't a natural resource like gold is. One useful distinguisher: when someone invents a new use for gold, the value of gold increases. When the field of cryptography progresses, bitcoin becomes more obsolete.
    - eimrine 4y ago
      > My point was more about what bitcoin isn't - specifically, it isn't a natural resource like gold is. I can understand that point, btw my opinion is that Bitcoin is a natural resource of saving some bits of data forever. No any alternative with same props in no-Blockchain world. > One useful distinguisher: when someone invents a new use for gold, the value of gold increases. When the field of cryptography progresses, bitcoin becomes more obsolete. Not even close to truth. When someone invents a new metal alloy with some properties of gold, the value of gold may decrease. When the field of cryptography progresses, the value of some cryptocurrencies may increase, for example Litecoin skyrocketed from $4 to $400 in one day after Lightning network has appeared on Litecoin several years ago (there were more examples not only for LTC, I just took a peace of data which I am confident in).
- aww_dang 4y ago
  >What's a bitcoin good for? Transacting, for those who choose to. There are other means of transacting and arguably better blockchains for doing so. The point remains. We all have our preferences and subjective personal valuations. Another individual might not see that value for himself, but the value remains for other parties. Claiming it is useless is a reaching generalization.
marginalia_nu 4y ago
Name one industrial use for cryptocurrencies that isn't some form of grifting.
- eimrine 4y ago
  It is too hard for me to chose only one: 1. Honest lottery where result is derived from some bits considered to be random. 2. Abuse-proof selling of (controversial) digital goods like vpn or porn with not enough old actresses for your jurisdiction. 3. Storing some bits of data forever (this is the most important feature of so-called cryptocurrencies from my point of view). 4. Donates if you don't want to deal with third-parties like please allow me to support the guys you have considered as terrorists without any legal consequences for me. 5. Taking my money with me if going abroad (if you are both not going to pay tax for taking too much cash and not allowed to make some transactions using bank accounts).
  - marginalia_nu 4y ago
    So money laundering, tax evasion, funding terrorism, child porn and gambling? Feels like all that's missing here is a cackling Skeletor.
    - eimrine 4y ago
      Try different angles to see at these cases. Tax evasion is good if your government happened to be terrorist regiment (maybe not a case for citizen of first-world). Money laundering is not from my list, I don't know is it possible to convert crypto to cash enough safely. Gambling is not any bad, to be honest, and instead of child porn case you may consider something less controversial like buying a vpn if your govt really don't want you to; or buying weed with less contact than using a contactless card in those countries who offers legal way for buying that. And seems nobody is noticing the most beautiful part of cryptocurrency's nature - storing some bits of data if you really don't want that to be deleted. Any flash card might became unreadable, any manuscript might became destroyed and any judge might commit a wrong decision about your property. But any enough popular blockchain ought run forever with all the data guaranteed to be untouched.

Well now you can argue that crypto also has actual industrial and other uses, they just shadow the most of the trading volume which is all about speculation and money laundering

dTal 4y ago

You can argue that, fallaciously. What's a bitcoin good for? You can't make it into anything else. Cryptography is useful, yes, as an abstract framework. That's not what's under discussion. Buying bitcoin is not the same as investing in cryptography research.

eimrine 4y ago
What is investing in cryptography research? Paying to some guy having some interesting whitepapers and that is it?
- dTal 4y ago
  I don't know, I guess. "The academic field of cryptography" is much more abstract than "a lump of gold". My point was more about what bitcoin isn't - specifically, it isn't a natural resource like gold is. One useful distinguisher: when someone invents a new use for gold, the value of gold increases. When the field of cryptography progresses, bitcoin becomes more obsolete.
  - eimrine 4y ago
    > My point was more about what bitcoin isn't - specifically, it isn't a natural resource like gold is. I can understand that point, btw my opinion is that Bitcoin is a natural resource of saving some bits of data forever. No any alternative with same props in no-Blockchain world. > One useful distinguisher: when someone invents a new use for gold, the value of gold increases. When the field of cryptography progresses, bitcoin becomes more obsolete. Not even close to truth. When someone invents a new metal alloy with some properties of gold, the value of gold may decrease. When the field of cryptography progresses, the value of some cryptocurrencies may increase, for example Litecoin skyrocketed from $4 to $400 in one day after Lightning network has appeared on Litecoin several years ago (there were more examples not only for LTC, I just took a peace of data which I am confident in).
aww_dang 4y ago
>What's a bitcoin good for? Transacting, for those who choose to. There are other means of transacting and arguably better blockchains for doing so. The point remains. We all have our preferences and subjective personal valuations. Another individual might not see that value for himself, but the value remains for other parties. Claiming it is useless is a reaching generalization.

marginalia_nu 4y ago

Name one industrial use for cryptocurrencies that isn't some form of grifting.

eimrine 4y ago
It is too hard for me to chose only one: 1. Honest lottery where result is derived from some bits considered to be random. 2. Abuse-proof selling of (controversial) digital goods like vpn or porn with not enough old actresses for your jurisdiction. 3. Storing some bits of data forever (this is the most important feature of so-called cryptocurrencies from my point of view). 4. Donates if you don't want to deal with third-parties like please allow me to support the guys you have considered as terrorists without any legal consequences for me. 5. Taking my money with me if going abroad (if you are both not going to pay tax for taking too much cash and not allowed to make some transactions using bank accounts).
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  So money laundering, tax evasion, funding terrorism, child porn and gambling? Feels like all that's missing here is a cackling Skeletor.
  - eimrine 4y ago
    Try different angles to see at these cases. Tax evasion is good if your government happened to be terrorist regiment (maybe not a case for citizen of first-world). Money laundering is not from my list, I don't know is it possible to convert crypto to cash enough safely. Gambling is not any bad, to be honest, and instead of child porn case you may consider something less controversial like buying a vpn if your govt really don't want you to; or buying weed with less contact than using a contactless card in those countries who offers legal way for buying that. And seems nobody is noticing the most beautiful part of cryptocurrency's nature - storing some bits of data if you really don't want that to be deleted. Any flash card might became unreadable, any manuscript might became destroyed and any judge might commit a wrong decision about your property. But any enough popular blockchain ought run forever with all the data guaranteed to be untouched.