4 ms·

> Most Europeans have access to things like cross border permits e.g. Switzerland/Germany and within the EU freedom of movement means it doesn't really matter m

> Most Europeans have access to things like cross border permits e.g. Switzerland/Germany and within the EU freedom of movement means it doesn't really matter much. You just register with the City Hall or wherever in your target country. This isn't as easy as it seems, even inside the EU. There are talks going on about laws regarding what constitutes "local hiring". Basically, the issue is that some companies hire people from Eastern Europe, and pay them EE salaries there. But those people are then physically working from Western Europe, where they are "visiting workers" (don't know the exact term). This allows the companies to, among others, 1. pay lower salaries than the local going rate and 2. avoid paying payroll taxes locally. I don't know how this works when applied to freelancing or remote working, but, as others have said, it's probably best to ask a lawyer or two.

moonchrome 5y ago
I don't see a problem with this if the visiting workers are there less time than it takes to be considered a tax resident, eg. you have 3 months on-site onboarding and then proceed to work remotely. After some time you're considered a resident so it doesn't make a difference compared to a local hire ?
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  That's the thing, I don't think there's a clear duration after which you're automatically considered a tax resident. The thing with these employees was that they never became local hires. So they would get their salary through their home country branch, with taxes paid over there, etc. The whole point is that these companies were trying to dance around the limits of employment law. What they were doing was technically legal, hence the will of the government to change the law.
  - ptsneves 5y ago
    In Poland you are a tax citizen automatically if you have been there more than 183 days[1]. The exact same 183 in Portugal[2]. It is an automatic thing so quite simple. [1] https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/poland/individual/residence https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/poland/individual/residence [2] https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/portugal/individual/residence https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/portugal/individual/residence
    - vladvasiliu 5y ago
      I beg to differ. Those look like the "default" rules. For the example of Poland (picked one of your two examples) it's not so simple. The "default" rules for tax residency are superseded by a convention between the two countries, and there are a bunch of them, with many countries, on the site of the French government. There are specific conventions with Germany, Belgium and Switzerland, for example, that apply only to people living close to the border and working in the other country. If you take the train from Paris to work in Geneva, it doesn't apply. Basically, it can be debated. It says that if you have a "permanent home" in both countries, you're a resident of the country "with which you have the most attachments". So for the hypothetical Polish worker who's "detached" in France, it could be argued that the "attachment" is to Poland, because their family is likely there, among other things. In the case of a freelance moving from country to country, who is likely unattached, this can probably be easily argued (though I'm not a lawyer). Concerning remote-working freelance: For "independent workers", you're taxed in the country where you do business, except if you have a "fixed base" in the other country, from which you conduct your business. In that case, you're taxed in the country where the base is, but only for the part of income that is attributable to the work done from that base. Source, in French: https://www.impots.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/media/10_conventions/pologne/pologne_convention-avec-la-pologne_fd_2183.pdf https://www.impots.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/media/10_conv... Conventions directory: https://www.impots.gouv.fr/les-conventions-internationales https://www.impots.gouv.fr/les-conventions-internationales
skocznymroczny 5y ago
> "visiting workers" (don't know the exact term) the term is 'posted workers'

moonchrome 5y ago

I don't see a problem with this if the visiting workers are there less time than it takes to be considered a tax resident, eg. you have 3 months on-site onboarding and then proceed to work remotely. After some time you're considered a resident so it doesn't make a difference compared to a local hire ?

vladvasiliu 5y ago
That's the thing, I don't think there's a clear duration after which you're automatically considered a tax resident. The thing with these employees was that they never became local hires. So they would get their salary through their home country branch, with taxes paid over there, etc. The whole point is that these companies were trying to dance around the limits of employment law. What they were doing was technically legal, hence the will of the government to change the law.
- ptsneves 5y ago
  In Poland you are a tax citizen automatically if you have been there more than 183 days[1]. The exact same 183 in Portugal[2]. It is an automatic thing so quite simple. [1] https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/poland/individual/residence https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/poland/individual/residence [2] https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/portugal/individual/residence https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/portugal/individual/residence
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    I beg to differ. Those look like the "default" rules. For the example of Poland (picked one of your two examples) it's not so simple. The "default" rules for tax residency are superseded by a convention between the two countries, and there are a bunch of them, with many countries, on the site of the French government. There are specific conventions with Germany, Belgium and Switzerland, for example, that apply only to people living close to the border and working in the other country. If you take the train from Paris to work in Geneva, it doesn't apply. Basically, it can be debated. It says that if you have a "permanent home" in both countries, you're a resident of the country "with which you have the most attachments". So for the hypothetical Polish worker who's "detached" in France, it could be argued that the "attachment" is to Poland, because their family is likely there, among other things. In the case of a freelance moving from country to country, who is likely unattached, this can probably be easily argued (though I'm not a lawyer). Concerning remote-working freelance: For "independent workers", you're taxed in the country where you do business, except if you have a "fixed base" in the other country, from which you conduct your business. In that case, you're taxed in the country where the base is, but only for the part of income that is attributable to the work done from that base. Source, in French: https://www.impots.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/media/10_conventions/pologne/pologne_convention-avec-la-pologne_fd_2183.pdf https://www.impots.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/media/10_conv... Conventions directory: https://www.impots.gouv.fr/les-conventions-internationales https://www.impots.gouv.fr/les-conventions-internationales

skocznymroczny 5y ago

> "visiting workers" (don't know the exact term) the term is 'posted workers'