4 ms·

Without armchair parenting: people always say this, but the better parents in my life I have have never ever seen using punishment, only consequences that were

Without armchair parenting: people always say this, but the better parents in my life I have have never ever seen using punishment, only consequences that were clearly communicated ahead of time. And for those parents, looking disappointed or hurt seems to cut their kids like knives without any further punishment needed.

scandox 4y ago
I mean punishment is definitely not my style either, but the idea of "better parents" is a pretty tricky one. Kids are like cards out of a deck. You really can be dealt a very tough hand.
sillysaurusx 4y ago
Those parents were fortunate not to have a sociopathic child. It was scary to see all the ways she’ll manipulate, and she’s not even 8. Punishment is unfortunately the only thing that she understands. You could call them consequences, but you’d be sugarcoating the truth. Her having a nuclear meltdown due to being sent to her room isn’t the parents’ fault, and it was eye opening to see just how genetic it is. (Her sister is as sweet as can be, and they were raised identically by the same parent. Interestingly, both kids are from the same two parents, but the father sadly died.) I’m not sure why siblings are so different, but I recently noticed it even in dogs — our doggo is an extroverted ham, whereas her sister is standoffish and proud.
- simonh 4y ago
  One grew up initially with no other sibling around and was an only child, while the other has always had an older sibling around and never been an only child. The experience of having an older sibling is completely different to the experience of having a younger sibling. The two are inevitably treated differently by their parents in some ways due to the age difference. If they go to the same school one of them had to go in ‘cold’ while the other went somewhere familiar they had heard the older sibling talk about and had probably visited before, where the teachers already knew the elder sibling and knew some of their friends. It’s a very different experience and situation to live in.
  - sillysaurusx 4y ago
    https://twitter.com/paulg/status/773140615068606464?s=21&t=v6VnjDFCkIH4OfKnqBk1xw https://twitter.com/paulg/status/773140615068606464?s=21&t=v... https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1364302749307928580?s=21&t=v6VnjDFCkIH4OfKnqBk1xw https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1364302749307928580?s=21&t=... Not to outsource my thinking, but it’s not my idea. I only noticed the effect once he pointed it out, and then it seemed obvious. The refutation to this is three children. If it was true that someone’s character wasn’t inborn, then we should see consistent effects on a middle child on average. But middle children seem equally random. My wife’s sister is an introvert and her other sister an extrovert, and it’s hard to square that with upbringing. I predict in the future embryo selection will become a new cultural battleground. We’re having a daughter nine months after June, and we know this because it’s now possible to select which gender you want during IVF. It seems a matter of time till the introversion genes are similarly selected for.
    - c22 4y ago
      People think 'oh, same parents, same environment...' but this seems patently impossible. Untill someone figures out double-blind parenting the confounding factors are endless. I've seen parents that claim they treat their kids "exactly the same," but they really don't.
kortilla 4y ago
Punishment and consequences are the same thing. > looking disappointed or hurt That’s punishment
koonsolo 4y ago
> only consequences that were clearly communicated ahead of time Like throwing out candy when they misbehave?
- watwut 4y ago
  Throwing out candy they might or might not get if they behave. Perfect way to add uncertainty, fear and stress into situation. The initial situation is described as "irrational kids" who "cant absorb explaining". And also, at least where I live, it is actually against road rules to throw away your crap out of window while you drive. It is kind of littering, except more dangerous as you are at speed.
- lupire 4y ago
  consequences are natural and logical, not arbitrary, so children can reason and intuit about them. Like not being able to hear the audiobook they are playing, or missing a turn or crashing the car due to distraction (don't do that). If a behavior has no consequences and you need to invent punishment, why is the behavior wrong? Just because your personal preference trumps your kids?
wiether 4y ago
> for those parents, looking disappointed or hurt seems to cut their kids like knives You met my mother then?

scandox 4y ago

I mean punishment is definitely not my style either, but the idea of "better parents" is a pretty tricky one. Kids are like cards out of a deck. You really can be dealt a very tough hand.

sillysaurusx 4y ago

Those parents were fortunate not to have a sociopathic child. It was scary to see all the ways she’ll manipulate, and she’s not even 8. Punishment is unfortunately the only thing that she understands. You could call them consequences, but you’d be sugarcoating the truth. Her having a nuclear meltdown due to being sent to her room isn’t the parents’ fault, and it was eye opening to see just how genetic it is. (Her sister is as sweet as can be, and they were raised identically by the same parent. Interestingly, both kids are from the same two parents, but the father sadly died.) I’m not sure why siblings are so different, but I recently noticed it even in dogs — our doggo is an extroverted ham, whereas her sister is standoffish and proud.

simonh 4y ago
One grew up initially with no other sibling around and was an only child, while the other has always had an older sibling around and never been an only child. The experience of having an older sibling is completely different to the experience of having a younger sibling. The two are inevitably treated differently by their parents in some ways due to the age difference. If they go to the same school one of them had to go in ‘cold’ while the other went somewhere familiar they had heard the older sibling talk about and had probably visited before, where the teachers already knew the elder sibling and knew some of their friends. It’s a very different experience and situation to live in.
- sillysaurusx 4y ago
  https://twitter.com/paulg/status/773140615068606464?s=21&t=v6VnjDFCkIH4OfKnqBk1xw https://twitter.com/paulg/status/773140615068606464?s=21&t=v... https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1364302749307928580?s=21&t=v6VnjDFCkIH4OfKnqBk1xw https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1364302749307928580?s=21&t=... Not to outsource my thinking, but it’s not my idea. I only noticed the effect once he pointed it out, and then it seemed obvious. The refutation to this is three children. If it was true that someone’s character wasn’t inborn, then we should see consistent effects on a middle child on average. But middle children seem equally random. My wife’s sister is an introvert and her other sister an extrovert, and it’s hard to square that with upbringing. I predict in the future embryo selection will become a new cultural battleground. We’re having a daughter nine months after June, and we know this because it’s now possible to select which gender you want during IVF. It seems a matter of time till the introversion genes are similarly selected for.
  - c22 4y ago
    People think 'oh, same parents, same environment...' but this seems patently impossible. Untill someone figures out double-blind parenting the confounding factors are endless. I've seen parents that claim they treat their kids "exactly the same," but they really don't.

kortilla 4y ago

Punishment and consequences are the same thing. > looking disappointed or hurt That’s punishment

koonsolo 4y ago

> only consequences that were clearly communicated ahead of time Like throwing out candy when they misbehave?

watwut 4y ago
Throwing out candy they might or might not get if they behave. Perfect way to add uncertainty, fear and stress into situation. The initial situation is described as "irrational kids" who "cant absorb explaining". And also, at least where I live, it is actually against road rules to throw away your crap out of window while you drive. It is kind of littering, except more dangerous as you are at speed.
lupire 4y ago
consequences are natural and logical, not arbitrary, so children can reason and intuit about them. Like not being able to hear the audiobook they are playing, or missing a turn or crashing the car due to distraction (don't do that). If a behavior has no consequences and you need to invent punishment, why is the behavior wrong? Just because your personal preference trumps your kids?

wiether 4y ago

> for those parents, looking disappointed or hurt seems to cut their kids like knives You met my mother then?