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willfully hurt? Come now. Sometimes kids are completely irrational, and like adults, need punishment. They aren't always in a state where they can absorb an "ex

willfully hurt? Come now. Sometimes kids are completely irrational, and like adults, need punishment. They aren't always in a state where they can absorb an "explaining". Sometimes they need to see that there are negative consequences of certain actions, especially when lines have been drawn and their actions cross those lines.

igorkraw 4y ago
Without armchair parenting: people always say this, but the better parents in my life I have have never ever seen using punishment, only consequences that were clearly communicated ahead of time. And for those parents, looking disappointed or hurt seems to cut their kids like knives without any further punishment needed.
- scandox 4y ago
  I mean punishment is definitely not my style either, but the idea of "better parents" is a pretty tricky one. Kids are like cards out of a deck. You really can be dealt a very tough hand.
- sillysaurusx 4y ago
  Those parents were fortunate not to have a sociopathic child. It was scary to see all the ways she’ll manipulate, and she’s not even 8. Punishment is unfortunately the only thing that she understands. You could call them consequences, but you’d be sugarcoating the truth. Her having a nuclear meltdown due to being sent to her room isn’t the parents’ fault, and it was eye opening to see just how genetic it is. (Her sister is as sweet as can be, and they were raised identically by the same parent. Interestingly, both kids are from the same two parents, but the father sadly died.) I’m not sure why siblings are so different, but I recently noticed it even in dogs — our doggo is an extroverted ham, whereas her sister is standoffish and proud.
  - simonh 4y ago
    One grew up initially with no other sibling around and was an only child, while the other has always had an older sibling around and never been an only child. The experience of having an older sibling is completely different to the experience of having a younger sibling. The two are inevitably treated differently by their parents in some ways due to the age difference. If they go to the same school one of them had to go in ‘cold’ while the other went somewhere familiar they had heard the older sibling talk about and had probably visited before, where the teachers already knew the elder sibling and knew some of their friends. It’s a very different experience and situation to live in.
    - sillysaurusx 4y ago
      https://twitter.com/paulg/status/773140615068606464?s=21&t=v6VnjDFCkIH4OfKnqBk1xw https://twitter.com/paulg/status/773140615068606464?s=21&t=v... https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1364302749307928580?s=21&t=v6VnjDFCkIH4OfKnqBk1xw https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1364302749307928580?s=21&t=... Not to outsource my thinking, but it’s not my idea. I only noticed the effect once he pointed it out, and then it seemed obvious. The refutation to this is three children. If it was true that someone’s character wasn’t inborn, then we should see consistent effects on a middle child on average. But middle children seem equally random. My wife’s sister is an introvert and her other sister an extrovert, and it’s hard to square that with upbringing. I predict in the future embryo selection will become a new cultural battleground. We’re having a daughter nine months after June, and we know this because it’s now possible to select which gender you want during IVF. It seems a matter of time till the introversion genes are similarly selected for.
      - c22 4y ago
        People think 'oh, same parents, same environment...' but this seems patently impossible. Untill someone figures out double-blind parenting the confounding factors are endless. I've seen parents that claim they treat their kids "exactly the same," but they really don't.
- kortilla 4y ago
  Punishment and consequences are the same thing. > looking disappointed or hurt That’s punishment
- koonsolo 4y ago
  > only consequences that were clearly communicated ahead of time Like throwing out candy when they misbehave?
  - watwut 4y ago
    Throwing out candy they might or might not get if they behave. Perfect way to add uncertainty, fear and stress into situation. The initial situation is described as "irrational kids" who "cant absorb explaining". And also, at least where I live, it is actually against road rules to throw away your crap out of window while you drive. It is kind of littering, except more dangerous as you are at speed.
  - lupire 4y ago
    consequences are natural and logical, not arbitrary, so children can reason and intuit about them. Like not being able to hear the audiobook they are playing, or missing a turn or crashing the car due to distraction (don't do that). If a behavior has no consequences and you need to invent punishment, why is the behavior wrong? Just because your personal preference trumps your kids?
- wiether 4y ago
  > for those parents, looking disappointed or hurt seems to cut their kids like knives You met my mother then?
watwut 4y ago
Chances are, they will melt down and cry/yell instead of improving after throwing that candy. It is not even meaninful, it is making you feel like you got vengeance. And it is pretty much guaranteed they will try to throw away siblings something is sibling is not doing whatbthey want next time. Kids minic and how you treat then is how they treat other kids in conflict. Moreover, small kids in car are tied. Literally worst they can do is noise.
- john567 4y ago
  Right but it doesn't have to go down like that. It's certainly a risk but it can also serve as a reminder that there are costly consequences associated with bad behavior. Question is, how far will they go for a piece of candy... I think more context is needed here.
  - watwut 4y ago
    It does not have to, but it more likely will go like that. > Question is, how far will they go for a piece of candy... You are here trying to bank on them acting on rational self interest. But, the initial situation was described as "kids are completely irrational". Threat of throwing away candy they don't have adds even more emotionality and confusion into situation. There is even no initial guarantee they would get candy if they behaved. Irrational kids wont become rational just because they got scared for candy. > I think more context is needed here. I actually agree here.
sonofhans 4y ago
No, nobody needs punishment. It may achieve momentary compliance, but always sabotages long-term important goals of trust and safety. Negative consequences are best experienced naturally, e.g., “You made art on the walls with crayons even after I asked you not to? Well, here’s my advice on how to clean the wall.” Punishment imposes additional suffering (“consequences”) in hopes that it is a deterrent. In fact, mostly it deters the victim from the punisher, not the behavior.
- chmod600 4y ago
  If someone is capable of dealing with the consequences of their actions, they are an adult, not a child. A three-year-old could easily make more of a mess trying to clean something. Plus, you need to supervise. The child could easily learn that drawing on walls is a great way to get your attention and play a new "cleanup game". People who believe in zero punishment have either no experience or a selective memory. Granted, punishment is often overused, but it can be underused, too.
  - sonofhans 4y ago
    I have vastly more experience with punishment than anyone should, thank you, and an excellent memory. My teenager has literally never been punished; he’s healthy, happy, respectful, responsible — and he trusts me, because I’ve never hurt him on purpose. Obviously one’s advice must be age-appropriate, and of course a three-year-old would need some supervision. That’s not an argument in favor of punishment, only parenting. And if the three-year-old does learn that drawing on the walls is a “cleanup game,” so what? They’ll get better at cleanup. My house isn’t a surgery. After a while they’ll get bored of washing walls, and then have a direct and visceral connection between “1 minute of fun drawing on the walls” and “30 minutes of cleanup afterwards.” That sounds like a great lesson to me. Punishment apologists lack imagination, and are usually more interested in protecting their own ego and authority instead of providing a safe and useful environment for their kids. There is no “underuse” of punishment; it is always the lesson of sadomasochism: teaching kids that they must love someone and fear them at the same time.
    - 4y ago
atoav 4y ago
Behavioral science suggests that punishment is the worst way of teaching any human to behave. Even just ignoring bad behavior is better. What works best is ignoring bad behavior and rewarding good one randomly (so not every time). And I would warn against overly relying on food as a form of reward and punishment, unless you want to give your kid an eating disorder for the rest of their life.
- neuroma 4y ago
  I wasn't aware that using food as a reward is a risk factor for eating disorders. I mean it has an elegance to it, but equally, most elegant ideas don't play out well in reality. Could you add a reference or some detail?
- rrdharan 4y ago
  > Behavioral science suggests that punishment is the worst way of teaching any human to behave. Even just ignoring bad behavior is better. Citation? And is this actually reproducible? By default I don’t trust any social / behavioral science study. The field is broken.
pjerem 4y ago
I don't know if that really match but I have an anecdote about (absence of) punishment as a teenager. As a teenager, on one of my first parties involving alcohol, my father said something like this : "Try not to drink a lot, but if you do and feel like you want to come back home, call us and we'll get you home, we will not reprimand you whatever would happen. Don't ride one of your friends car, just call us." Well, contrary to all my friends who acted like their parents should not know they would drink alcohol, I had a great party with moderately high alcohol consumption. "Fun fact" is that I had to call the emergency services for someone who has had an ethyl coma. Interestingly, and I think it's correlated, I continued to drink alcohol at parties but my first real hangover was more than 5 or 6 years after, on a place and with people I felt safe with. _All_ of my friends who were taught that they'll be reprimanded if they drank a lot started to drink a lot secretly at every parties. Most of them aren't even my friends anymore.

igorkraw 4y ago

Without armchair parenting: people always say this, but the better parents in my life I have have never ever seen using punishment, only consequences that were clearly communicated ahead of time. And for those parents, looking disappointed or hurt seems to cut their kids like knives without any further punishment needed.

scandox 4y ago
I mean punishment is definitely not my style either, but the idea of "better parents" is a pretty tricky one. Kids are like cards out of a deck. You really can be dealt a very tough hand.
sillysaurusx 4y ago
Those parents were fortunate not to have a sociopathic child. It was scary to see all the ways she’ll manipulate, and she’s not even 8. Punishment is unfortunately the only thing that she understands. You could call them consequences, but you’d be sugarcoating the truth. Her having a nuclear meltdown due to being sent to her room isn’t the parents’ fault, and it was eye opening to see just how genetic it is. (Her sister is as sweet as can be, and they were raised identically by the same parent. Interestingly, both kids are from the same two parents, but the father sadly died.) I’m not sure why siblings are so different, but I recently noticed it even in dogs — our doggo is an extroverted ham, whereas her sister is standoffish and proud.
- simonh 4y ago
  One grew up initially with no other sibling around and was an only child, while the other has always had an older sibling around and never been an only child. The experience of having an older sibling is completely different to the experience of having a younger sibling. The two are inevitably treated differently by their parents in some ways due to the age difference. If they go to the same school one of them had to go in ‘cold’ while the other went somewhere familiar they had heard the older sibling talk about and had probably visited before, where the teachers already knew the elder sibling and knew some of their friends. It’s a very different experience and situation to live in.
  - sillysaurusx 4y ago
    https://twitter.com/paulg/status/773140615068606464?s=21&t=v6VnjDFCkIH4OfKnqBk1xw https://twitter.com/paulg/status/773140615068606464?s=21&t=v... https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1364302749307928580?s=21&t=v6VnjDFCkIH4OfKnqBk1xw https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1364302749307928580?s=21&t=... Not to outsource my thinking, but it’s not my idea. I only noticed the effect once he pointed it out, and then it seemed obvious. The refutation to this is three children. If it was true that someone’s character wasn’t inborn, then we should see consistent effects on a middle child on average. But middle children seem equally random. My wife’s sister is an introvert and her other sister an extrovert, and it’s hard to square that with upbringing. I predict in the future embryo selection will become a new cultural battleground. We’re having a daughter nine months after June, and we know this because it’s now possible to select which gender you want during IVF. It seems a matter of time till the introversion genes are similarly selected for.
    - c22 4y ago
      People think 'oh, same parents, same environment...' but this seems patently impossible. Untill someone figures out double-blind parenting the confounding factors are endless. I've seen parents that claim they treat their kids "exactly the same," but they really don't.
kortilla 4y ago
Punishment and consequences are the same thing. > looking disappointed or hurt That’s punishment
koonsolo 4y ago
> only consequences that were clearly communicated ahead of time Like throwing out candy when they misbehave?
- watwut 4y ago
  Throwing out candy they might or might not get if they behave. Perfect way to add uncertainty, fear and stress into situation. The initial situation is described as "irrational kids" who "cant absorb explaining". And also, at least where I live, it is actually against road rules to throw away your crap out of window while you drive. It is kind of littering, except more dangerous as you are at speed.
- lupire 4y ago
  consequences are natural and logical, not arbitrary, so children can reason and intuit about them. Like not being able to hear the audiobook they are playing, or missing a turn or crashing the car due to distraction (don't do that). If a behavior has no consequences and you need to invent punishment, why is the behavior wrong? Just because your personal preference trumps your kids?
wiether 4y ago
> for those parents, looking disappointed or hurt seems to cut their kids like knives You met my mother then?

watwut 4y ago

Chances are, they will melt down and cry/yell instead of improving after throwing that candy. It is not even meaninful, it is making you feel like you got vengeance. And it is pretty much guaranteed they will try to throw away siblings something is sibling is not doing whatbthey want next time. Kids minic and how you treat then is how they treat other kids in conflict. Moreover, small kids in car are tied. Literally worst they can do is noise.

john567 4y ago
Right but it doesn't have to go down like that. It's certainly a risk but it can also serve as a reminder that there are costly consequences associated with bad behavior. Question is, how far will they go for a piece of candy... I think more context is needed here.
- watwut 4y ago
  It does not have to, but it more likely will go like that. > Question is, how far will they go for a piece of candy... You are here trying to bank on them acting on rational self interest. But, the initial situation was described as "kids are completely irrational". Threat of throwing away candy they don't have adds even more emotionality and confusion into situation. There is even no initial guarantee they would get candy if they behaved. Irrational kids wont become rational just because they got scared for candy. > I think more context is needed here. I actually agree here.

sonofhans 4y ago

No, nobody needs punishment. It may achieve momentary compliance, but always sabotages long-term important goals of trust and safety. Negative consequences are best experienced naturally, e.g., “You made art on the walls with crayons even after I asked you not to? Well, here’s my advice on how to clean the wall.” Punishment imposes additional suffering (“consequences”) in hopes that it is a deterrent. In fact, mostly it deters the victim from the punisher, not the behavior.

chmod600 4y ago
If someone is capable of dealing with the consequences of their actions, they are an adult, not a child. A three-year-old could easily make more of a mess trying to clean something. Plus, you need to supervise. The child could easily learn that drawing on walls is a great way to get your attention and play a new "cleanup game". People who believe in zero punishment have either no experience or a selective memory. Granted, punishment is often overused, but it can be underused, too.
- sonofhans 4y ago
  I have vastly more experience with punishment than anyone should, thank you, and an excellent memory. My teenager has literally never been punished; he’s healthy, happy, respectful, responsible — and he trusts me, because I’ve never hurt him on purpose. Obviously one’s advice must be age-appropriate, and of course a three-year-old would need some supervision. That’s not an argument in favor of punishment, only parenting. And if the three-year-old does learn that drawing on the walls is a “cleanup game,” so what? They’ll get better at cleanup. My house isn’t a surgery. After a while they’ll get bored of washing walls, and then have a direct and visceral connection between “1 minute of fun drawing on the walls” and “30 minutes of cleanup afterwards.” That sounds like a great lesson to me. Punishment apologists lack imagination, and are usually more interested in protecting their own ego and authority instead of providing a safe and useful environment for their kids. There is no “underuse” of punishment; it is always the lesson of sadomasochism: teaching kids that they must love someone and fear them at the same time.
  - 4y ago

atoav 4y ago

Behavioral science suggests that punishment is the worst way of teaching any human to behave. Even just ignoring bad behavior is better. What works best is ignoring bad behavior and rewarding good one randomly (so not every time). And I would warn against overly relying on food as a form of reward and punishment, unless you want to give your kid an eating disorder for the rest of their life.

neuroma 4y ago
I wasn't aware that using food as a reward is a risk factor for eating disorders. I mean it has an elegance to it, but equally, most elegant ideas don't play out well in reality. Could you add a reference or some detail?
rrdharan 4y ago
> Behavioral science suggests that punishment is the worst way of teaching any human to behave. Even just ignoring bad behavior is better. Citation? And is this actually reproducible? By default I don’t trust any social / behavioral science study. The field is broken.

pjerem 4y ago

I don't know if that really match but I have an anecdote about (absence of) punishment as a teenager. As a teenager, on one of my first parties involving alcohol, my father said something like this : "Try not to drink a lot, but if you do and feel like you want to come back home, call us and we'll get you home, we will not reprimand you whatever would happen. Don't ride one of your friends car, just call us." Well, contrary to all my friends who acted like their parents should not know they would drink alcohol, I had a great party with moderately high alcohol consumption. "Fun fact" is that I had to call the emergency services for someone who has had an ethyl coma. Interestingly, and I think it's correlated, I continued to drink alcohol at parties but my first real hangover was more than 5 or 6 years after, on a place and with people I felt safe with. _All_ of my friends who were taught that they'll be reprimanded if they drank a lot started to drink a lot secretly at every parties. Most of them aren't even my friends anymore.