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> Courtesy costs nothing. Lower the toilet seat after use. Let the people in the elevator exit before you enter. Return shopping carts to their designated area

> Courtesy costs nothing. Lower the toilet seat after use. Let the people in the elevator exit before you enter. Return shopping carts to their designated areas. When you borrow something, return it better shape (filled up, cleaned) than when you got it. Sorry, this one depends on the old "if everyone would just..." It does cost something, and it's the price we ought to be willing to pay for a civil society. But it's also long been non-reciprocated (in my experience) and so I'm done with self sacrifice in the name of the common good (to the extent I can untrain it out of myself).

testbjjl 5y ago
> so I'm done with self sacrifice in the name of the common good How’s that working out for you?
- throwawaysleep 5y ago
  My quality of life has surged since I stopped caring about those around me who are not regular parts of my life.
  - testbjjl 5y ago
    Is this a prescription for the rest of us? What should happen when I encounter you, perhaps at an inconvenient time? Is the answer, “don’t know them, can’t be bothered, couldn’t care less?”
    - ggm 5y ago
      It asolutely isn't a prescription for the rest of us, its terribly a-social. It demands that "stop caring" is defined as "do the minimum harm, and do the maximum nice, within the limits"
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        Well... there are people who go through life blowing off everyone they can. That is, as you say, terribly a-social. It's not a healthy way to live. At the same time, there are also people who feel free to write a check, sign your name to it, and expect you to cash it. (They would do this financially if they thought they could, but mainly they do it emotionally.) If you let people do that to you, that also is not a healthy way to live. So there's a balance between being asocial and being a doormat. Don't be either one.
        ggm 5y ago
        Yea, I go with this one. It's the corollary defined as "the join over the golden rule, and "be kind to yourself"
  - adamredwoods 5y ago
    My neighbor thinks as you do: he revs his car and motorcycles engines at night while we try to sleep. Therefore, we suffer. (yes, we've asked him to stop)
woodruffw 5y ago
I’m sorry that you feel like you don’t get your end out of the deal, but it’s a bad idea to fully embrace a “race to the bottom” mentality. Most people who don’t reciprocate behaviors in a healthy society fail to do so because nobody else around them does so — doing the right thing for its own sake can be a powerful motivation for those around you.
- maerF0x0 5y ago
  Sometimes I'm less concerned about the total outcome as I am that the rules claimed are the rules observed. To use a relationship example I don't get mad so much because you cheated on me so much as because you lied about exclusivity. I don't get mad that I pay taxes, but that I also don't see societal improvement happening proportional to what I pay... (and that there always seems to be none left in the communal basket when I have a bad day...) See?
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    That makes perfect sense to me: a feeling of consistency is the strongest component of justice (or injustice). Here’s my 0.02c: you can be justified in perceiving injustice (against yourself, or more generally) and simultaneously be unjustified in reacting to that injustice. Less roundabout: two wrongs don’t make a right, and what is right is virtuous in its course of action (in the sense that acting right encourages other people to act right, when doing so isn’t tied to a negative emotion like shame.)
    - maerF0x0 5y ago
      Thank you for that, it might be a healthier way to think about it. However it doesn't fix the sink on my resources and the relative gain on others. This gets extra fickle when it's in a competitive environment
ericmcer 5y ago
It also creates a strange dynamic between you and others. If I 100% of the time will fill up a car I borrow when I return it, then what happens when someone borrows mine and returns it with the tank 20% lower than when I gave it to them? Get upset? Quietly pity them with some sanctimonious "they know not what they do" feeling? If you feel it is important to behave in a certain manner it is hard not to judge others by the same standards. Can you hold yourself to an extremely high level of courtesy without judging others?
- 3np 5y ago
  > Can you hold yourself to [...] high level of courtesy without judging others? Yes, and this is a worthwhile challenge to accept if you feel it's indeed a challenge. Life gets more enjoyable if it's not treated as a zero-sum-game with expectations of reciprocity. Pay it forward; don't assume to be paid back. Be the change you want to see. You can and should do what you believe is right without being upset that the rest of the world acts differently. (BTW: I object to that the examples of returning borrowed car with gas filled up,lowering toilet seats, letting people leave elevators and returning shopping carts in the right place are "extremely high levels of courtesy". It's just basic simple things. Regardless of how social norms in your immediate vicinity may deviate)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- jakelazaroff 5y ago
  I wouldn’t be upset or pity someone who doesn't refill the tank — I just wouldn’t go out of my way to help them again, like I would for someone who does refill it. If you make a point of showing your appreciation when I do you a favor, I’m much more likely to do you more favors in the future.
Heyso 5y ago
If courtesy cost nothing, it means it has no value, why would you do something of no value ? Another similar issue is to confuse work and employement. Typically raising childrens is a lot of work, but it is not employement. (Womans have been working since loooong ago, just not getting paid for it)
- 3np 5y ago
  There are things increase value for others without incurring a cost for the giver. Courtesy can be one example of that. Not everything is transactional and zero-sum.
WalterBright 5y ago
Doing the right thing means doing it regardless of whether anyone reciprocates or not.

testbjjl 5y ago

> so I'm done with self sacrifice in the name of the common good How’s that working out for you?

throwawaysleep 5y ago
My quality of life has surged since I stopped caring about those around me who are not regular parts of my life.
- testbjjl 5y ago
  Is this a prescription for the rest of us? What should happen when I encounter you, perhaps at an inconvenient time? Is the answer, “don’t know them, can’t be bothered, couldn’t care less?”
  - ggm 5y ago
    It asolutely isn't a prescription for the rest of us, its terribly a-social. It demands that "stop caring" is defined as "do the minimum harm, and do the maximum nice, within the limits"
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      Well... there are people who go through life blowing off everyone they can. That is, as you say, terribly a-social. It's not a healthy way to live. At the same time, there are also people who feel free to write a check, sign your name to it, and expect you to cash it. (They would do this financially if they thought they could, but mainly they do it emotionally.) If you let people do that to you, that also is not a healthy way to live. So there's a balance between being asocial and being a doormat. Don't be either one.
      - ggm 5y ago
        Yea, I go with this one. It's the corollary defined as "the join over the golden rule, and "be kind to yourself"
- adamredwoods 5y ago
  My neighbor thinks as you do: he revs his car and motorcycles engines at night while we try to sleep. Therefore, we suffer. (yes, we've asked him to stop)

woodruffw 5y ago

I’m sorry that you feel like you don’t get your end out of the deal, but it’s a bad idea to fully embrace a “race to the bottom” mentality. Most people who don’t reciprocate behaviors in a healthy society fail to do so because nobody else around them does so — doing the right thing for its own sake can be a powerful motivation for those around you.

maerF0x0 5y ago
Sometimes I'm less concerned about the total outcome as I am that the rules claimed are the rules observed. To use a relationship example I don't get mad so much because you cheated on me so much as because you lied about exclusivity. I don't get mad that I pay taxes, but that I also don't see societal improvement happening proportional to what I pay... (and that there always seems to be none left in the communal basket when I have a bad day...) See?
- woodruffw 5y ago
  That makes perfect sense to me: a feeling of consistency is the strongest component of justice (or injustice). Here’s my 0.02c: you can be justified in perceiving injustice (against yourself, or more generally) and simultaneously be unjustified in reacting to that injustice. Less roundabout: two wrongs don’t make a right, and what is right is virtuous in its course of action (in the sense that acting right encourages other people to act right, when doing so isn’t tied to a negative emotion like shame.)
  - maerF0x0 5y ago
    Thank you for that, it might be a healthier way to think about it. However it doesn't fix the sink on my resources and the relative gain on others. This gets extra fickle when it's in a competitive environment

ericmcer 5y ago

It also creates a strange dynamic between you and others. If I 100% of the time will fill up a car I borrow when I return it, then what happens when someone borrows mine and returns it with the tank 20% lower than when I gave it to them? Get upset? Quietly pity them with some sanctimonious "they know not what they do" feeling? If you feel it is important to behave in a certain manner it is hard not to judge others by the same standards. Can you hold yourself to an extremely high level of courtesy without judging others?

3np 5y ago
> Can you hold yourself to [...] high level of courtesy without judging others? Yes, and this is a worthwhile challenge to accept if you feel it's indeed a challenge. Life gets more enjoyable if it's not treated as a zero-sum-game with expectations of reciprocity. Pay it forward; don't assume to be paid back. Be the change you want to see. You can and should do what you believe is right without being upset that the rest of the world acts differently. (BTW: I object to that the examples of returning borrowed car with gas filled up,lowering toilet seats, letting people leave elevators and returning shopping carts in the right place are "extremely high levels of courtesy". It's just basic simple things. Regardless of how social norms in your immediate vicinity may deviate)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jakelazaroff 5y ago
I wouldn’t be upset or pity someone who doesn't refill the tank — I just wouldn’t go out of my way to help them again, like I would for someone who does refill it. If you make a point of showing your appreciation when I do you a favor, I’m much more likely to do you more favors in the future.

Heyso 5y ago

If courtesy cost nothing, it means it has no value, why would you do something of no value ? Another similar issue is to confuse work and employement. Typically raising childrens is a lot of work, but it is not employement. (Womans have been working since loooong ago, just not getting paid for it)

3np 5y ago
There are things increase value for others without incurring a cost for the giver. Courtesy can be one example of that. Not everything is transactional and zero-sum.

WalterBright 5y ago

Doing the right thing means doing it regardless of whether anyone reciprocates or not.