4 ms·

I've been working on molten salt reactor claddings for a few years now. MSRs are very safe. First, there are two main groups of molten salt systems. One grou

I've been working on molten salt reactor claddings for a few years now. MSRs are very safe. First, there are two main groups of molten salt systems. One group uses generic salt to transport heat. This usually provides efficiency gains over water based systems. These are the systems that might leak sodium and it's no big deal. The 2nd kind of system uses a salt with the fissile material dissolved in it. This is what the article is about. Leaks in these systems are not an option. The molten salt in this case slowly attacks any metal it comes in contact with. The tanks, tubes, etc. are designed with a large safety margin and constantly monitored. The salt chemistry is also monitored for signs of the materials the storage vessel is made of.

ncmncm 5y ago
If you find "materials the storage vessel is made of" in the salt, do you shut it down and abandon it? Alternative would be to drain it into a holding tank and, what, send somebody in to fix it? Who?
- mlyle 5y ago
  > If you find "materials the storage vessel is made of" in the salt, do you shut it down and abandon it? You identify the operational error in salt chemistry that has lead to losing some of the storage vessel material, and then you perform engineering analysis on the new resultant factor of safety. If necessary, next fueling cycle you shut down the reactor and perform remediation actions.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Assume you need "remediation actions", and that would have to mean sending somebody to climb inside and weld something. Do you shut it down and abandon it, instead? Who goes in?
    - jabl 5y ago
      You seem to be desperately angling for somebody to say that the evil reactor management orders one of the workers to be sacrificed by going into the highly radioactive reactor vessel. Why?
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        Just trying to get answers to simple questions. If there aren't any good answers, that is an answer.
        jabl 5y ago
        Ah, "Just Asking Questions", like I suspected.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        I guess that is my answer.
        mlyle 5y ago
        Your answer is that these exact issues have been studied for >50 years, and had reasonable answers back then: http://moltensalt.org/references/static/downloads/pdf/ORNL-TM-1859.pdf http://moltensalt.org/references/static/downloads/pdf/ORNL-T... Almost all largely workable decades ago before we had e.g. laser welding, modern remote welding, industrial robots, etc. Of course things are better now. (Also, of course, we'd have to learn a lot operationally to actually do it). Still, obviously these are procedures one would like to not have to employ, as they're likely to be very expensive and troublesome. They provided ample fuel for your concern trolling while I slept and couldn't answer, though, and then for you to "conclude" that there was no answer because the person answering in my stead didn't offer one. Yuck.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        There is no hurry. We got there in the end.
- tinco 5y ago
  Literally anyone or anything? Repairing vessels is hardly an unsolved engineering challenge.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Repairing vessels with a slime of hard-radioactive salt over it is rather different from what people need to do in PWRs.
- ortusdux 5y ago
  Keep in mind that only a few MSRs have reached criticality, and they were experimental units operated in the 50's and 60's. This article and all of this talk is about "Gen IV" MSRs, which, AFIAK, are all currently in the design an testing phase. Salt chemistry monitoring is a critical part of a MSR operation. The fissile material is slowly exhausted in the reaction and needs to be replaced, while the byproducts need to be removed. The nuclear reaction causes some transmutation of every element it irradiates, which means you get a predictable but diverse set of contaminants that need to also be removed. The molten salt corrodes everything it comes in contact with, and the radiation also degrades the materials in wild ways. One study I read estimated that directly exposed tungsten would transmute into rhenium at the rate of 1% per year, and that the newly created rhenium would transmute into osmium at the same rate. Basically, it will take an army of people much much smarter than me to plan for all the issues that might come up during the operation of a MSR. There are many startups backed by billions of dollars trying to find a good solution. One of my favorites simply designs in 8 containment vessels and a crane into the reactor chamber. They plan to just pick up the top of the reactor and move it into a new vessel every 7 years or so.
irjustin 5y ago
> These are the systems that might leak sodium and it's no big deal. Sorry can you back this statement up with more than "it's safe, trust me"? I'm not knowledgeable enough to say if this statement can be accepted at face value. History has shown that's not enough. But to me, any system that leaks by accident is a disaster waiting to happen on time scales that power plants are expected to operate on.
- jiggawatts 5y ago
  It's a relative statement. In this case, leaking molten sodium merely causes a nontoxic metal fire. Definitely in the category of "not fun", but not the end of the world either. Just dump some sand on it and wait for it to cool down. Leaks of molten salt nuclear fuels are an entirely different category of industrial disaster. A nuclear accident at best, and a large-scale disaster at worst. It's like the difference between a water truck having an accident and spilling water on the road and a damn bursting and flooding a city. One makes for a funny picture on Reddit, the other gets the national guard called up to deal with the emergency. Both involve spilled water.
  - Gravityloss 5y ago
    Salt can be extremely chemically inert. Very different from sodium. Also it has very low vapor pressure so different from water.
    - jiggawatts 5y ago
      Not the salts used in reactors. Toxic element are used like fluorine, not to mention the fuel that’s dissolved into it.
      - Gravityloss 5y ago
        I use fluoride tooth paste every day. I wouldn't put sodium in my mouth...
        5y ago
noneeeed 5y ago
My physics is very rusty. Why is molton salt more efficient than water for heat transfer? Is it simply that you can get it up to higher temperatures and heat systems are more efficient at high temperatures?
- Gravityloss 5y ago
  High temperature, low pressure. You can use water, sodium, lead, fluoride salts. All have their different issues.

ncmncm 5y ago

If you find "materials the storage vessel is made of" in the salt, do you shut it down and abandon it? Alternative would be to drain it into a holding tank and, what, send somebody in to fix it? Who?

mlyle 5y ago
> If you find "materials the storage vessel is made of" in the salt, do you shut it down and abandon it? You identify the operational error in salt chemistry that has lead to losing some of the storage vessel material, and then you perform engineering analysis on the new resultant factor of safety. If necessary, next fueling cycle you shut down the reactor and perform remediation actions.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Assume you need "remediation actions", and that would have to mean sending somebody to climb inside and weld something. Do you shut it down and abandon it, instead? Who goes in?
  - jabl 5y ago
    You seem to be desperately angling for somebody to say that the evil reactor management orders one of the workers to be sacrificed by going into the highly radioactive reactor vessel. Why?
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Just trying to get answers to simple questions. If there aren't any good answers, that is an answer.
      - jabl 5y ago
        Ah, "Just Asking Questions", like I suspected.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        I guess that is my answer.
        mlyle 5y ago
        Your answer is that these exact issues have been studied for >50 years, and had reasonable answers back then: http://moltensalt.org/references/static/downloads/pdf/ORNL-TM-1859.pdf http://moltensalt.org/references/static/downloads/pdf/ORNL-T... Almost all largely workable decades ago before we had e.g. laser welding, modern remote welding, industrial robots, etc. Of course things are better now. (Also, of course, we'd have to learn a lot operationally to actually do it). Still, obviously these are procedures one would like to not have to employ, as they're likely to be very expensive and troublesome. They provided ample fuel for your concern trolling while I slept and couldn't answer, though, and then for you to "conclude" that there was no answer because the person answering in my stead didn't offer one. Yuck.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        There is no hurry. We got there in the end.
tinco 5y ago
Literally anyone or anything? Repairing vessels is hardly an unsolved engineering challenge.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Repairing vessels with a slime of hard-radioactive salt over it is rather different from what people need to do in PWRs.
ortusdux 5y ago
Keep in mind that only a few MSRs have reached criticality, and they were experimental units operated in the 50's and 60's. This article and all of this talk is about "Gen IV" MSRs, which, AFIAK, are all currently in the design an testing phase. Salt chemistry monitoring is a critical part of a MSR operation. The fissile material is slowly exhausted in the reaction and needs to be replaced, while the byproducts need to be removed. The nuclear reaction causes some transmutation of every element it irradiates, which means you get a predictable but diverse set of contaminants that need to also be removed. The molten salt corrodes everything it comes in contact with, and the radiation also degrades the materials in wild ways. One study I read estimated that directly exposed tungsten would transmute into rhenium at the rate of 1% per year, and that the newly created rhenium would transmute into osmium at the same rate. Basically, it will take an army of people much much smarter than me to plan for all the issues that might come up during the operation of a MSR. There are many startups backed by billions of dollars trying to find a good solution. One of my favorites simply designs in 8 containment vessels and a crane into the reactor chamber. They plan to just pick up the top of the reactor and move it into a new vessel every 7 years or so.

irjustin 5y ago

> These are the systems that might leak sodium and it's no big deal. Sorry can you back this statement up with more than "it's safe, trust me"? I'm not knowledgeable enough to say if this statement can be accepted at face value. History has shown that's not enough. But to me, any system that leaks by accident is a disaster waiting to happen on time scales that power plants are expected to operate on.

jiggawatts 5y ago
It's a relative statement. In this case, leaking molten sodium merely causes a nontoxic metal fire. Definitely in the category of "not fun", but not the end of the world either. Just dump some sand on it and wait for it to cool down. Leaks of molten salt nuclear fuels are an entirely different category of industrial disaster. A nuclear accident at best, and a large-scale disaster at worst. It's like the difference between a water truck having an accident and spilling water on the road and a damn bursting and flooding a city. One makes for a funny picture on Reddit, the other gets the national guard called up to deal with the emergency. Both involve spilled water.
- Gravityloss 5y ago
  Salt can be extremely chemically inert. Very different from sodium. Also it has very low vapor pressure so different from water.
  - jiggawatts 5y ago
    Not the salts used in reactors. Toxic element are used like fluorine, not to mention the fuel that’s dissolved into it.
    - Gravityloss 5y ago
      I use fluoride tooth paste every day. I wouldn't put sodium in my mouth...
      - 5y ago

noneeeed 5y ago

My physics is very rusty. Why is molton salt more efficient than water for heat transfer? Is it simply that you can get it up to higher temperatures and heat systems are more efficient at high temperatures?

Gravityloss 5y ago
High temperature, low pressure. You can use water, sodium, lead, fluoride salts. All have their different issues.