6 ms·

I wonder if we'll ever get over the hump in human development of assuming "bigotry" as the root cause of everything bad in the world. obviously it exists, but t

I wonder if we'll ever get over the hump in human development of assuming "bigotry" as the root cause of everything bad in the world. obviously it exists, but the world is more nuanced than "bigots ruin everything for non-bigots" being the core of every issue. by no means is it a mystery as to how we got here, but still, it's disappointing that we seem to have sort of high-centered on this false idea that unlimited tolerance is the only solution to everything and anything short of it is just plain old-fashioned "bigotry", and we seem to lack the means of getting unstuck. it's pretty hard to be optimistic about this—the "bigotry" narrative is very appealing and easy to take at face value without putting any further thought into the issues at play. everyone wants to be a good person (or at least think of themselves as such).

jdrc 5y ago
actually yes we will. a little external pressure has already brought a lot of nations to reconsider their priorities
jleyank 5y ago
Bigotry is a piece of jargon meaning “those who hate them”. What else do you call somebody burning a religious book for the sole purpose of generating a response? Would you prefer fascist? Nihilistic performance artist? There is no sane way to defend these actions, so those offended by what I’m writing must be nuts or participants frustrated on being outed. And it’s quite disappointing the right wing leaning of at least some of hacker news. As there’s anonymity in up and down grades, they might all be trolls. But there’s a lot of fondness for cash here along with much less interest in helping others with it. Y’all win. Have fun in the stew.
- adamrezich 5y ago
  I don't pay very much attention to goings-on in Sweden but just to make sure we have our causality straight here: how far into their mass migration did these book-burnings begin, and how was integration doing before that? (seeing as how you're blaming book-burning—which, without examining things further, I assume to be a political stunt distastefully attempting to make a point/draw attention to the issue—for the integration difficulties.)
  - anamax 5y ago
    It's not okay to disrespect some religions but it is acceptable, praiseworthy even, to disrespect others. That will end well.
    - Gnob 5y ago
      >That will end well. I don't think people care when you start disrespecting their religion. I would love to hear any scientific / fruitful / reasonable discussions about why my religion is invalid if you got any, but mere mockery? I am sure that will end well.
      - anamax 5y ago
        > I don't think people care when you start disrespecting their religion. That depends on the people, or is it the religion? > I would love to hear any scientific / fruitful / reasonable discussions about why my religion is invalid if you got any Not relevant to my point.
        Gnob 5y ago
        > That depends on the people, or is it the religion? Not sure what you mean, can you elaborate?
        anamax 5y ago
        In some instances, "disrespecting a religion" results in considerable uproar and even violence. Said uproar/violence is committed by people but I'm asking if the cause is the people or the religion.
- AvocadoPanic 5y ago
  Watching others burn books you hold sacred is one of the costs of admission to western civilization. Certainly the French have had to watch whole churches burn. If you're unable to be civilized there are plenty of places where this sort of response is acceptable. Perhaps a draw the prophet contest next.
  - Gnob 5y ago
    >If you're unable to be civilized there are plenty of places where this sort of response is acceptable. I think you are misunderstanding what being civilized means. being civilized or not has literally nothing to have with secularism or religion, you trying to make it equal to atheism is just gaslighting. and people are going to get out, nobody is fancying your nazi crap under "Freedom of speech". people have been getting out of france, and soon will be getting out of sweden and to hell with your freedoms. You can have all the cuckery you want, just keep it inside your borders, and we will die or find a way to live holding to our religion and dignity, and to teach our kids to do so too. one last thing, Christianity isn't Islam, period. The Muslims didn't commit war crimes, try to ethnically cleanse people or whatnot. They lived in peace with other nations and their war ethics are far better than yours. and had peace treaties and were pretty civilized, the only difference was, they were not cucks they would defend their religion and principles and honour and would die for it. and cuckery != civility Muslims are commanded to be civilised and well behaved, go to the nearest mosque in your area, make up a reasonable or even unreasonable question about Islam, just to see how people act, do they bark or bite or are they civilised and merely hold their beliefs very dear to their hearts, you have to check for yourself, because who knows, they might actually be savages.
    - AvocadoPanic 5y ago
      I made no religious requirements for civilization only behavioral. You can't riot when you perceive insults to you religion or ethnicity and be civilized in the west. It's not tolerated behavior. This is how we manage our multipolar societies with a variety of stakeholders. This is a feature, just because you don't see or understand the purpose does not mean it serves no purpose. With out this we could go back to killing catholics for their instance on synergism and semipelagianism instead of sola fide.
- arinlen 5y ago
  > Bigotry is a piece of jargon meaning “those who hate them”. What else do you call somebody burning a religious book for the sole purpose of generating a response? Would you prefer fascist? Nihilistic performance artist? Regardless of what you wish to call a random guy who feels compelled to mishandle a religious book, why do you feel this warrants massive riots which extend for days and target society as a whole? And what reaction do you think these massive riots draws from a whole country regarding the presence of these problematic communities of asylum-seekers-turned-rioters? Do you think a person who grew up embracing the founding principles of a liberal democracy will look at their private and public property being attacked and destroyed and come out thinking that their community benefits from the presence of these newly-arrived rioters?

jdrc 5y ago

actually yes we will. a little external pressure has already brought a lot of nations to reconsider their priorities

jleyank 5y ago

Bigotry is a piece of jargon meaning “those who hate them”. What else do you call somebody burning a religious book for the sole purpose of generating a response? Would you prefer fascist? Nihilistic performance artist? There is no sane way to defend these actions, so those offended by what I’m writing must be nuts or participants frustrated on being outed. And it’s quite disappointing the right wing leaning of at least some of hacker news. As there’s anonymity in up and down grades, they might all be trolls. But there’s a lot of fondness for cash here along with much less interest in helping others with it. Y’all win. Have fun in the stew.

adamrezich 5y ago
I don't pay very much attention to goings-on in Sweden but just to make sure we have our causality straight here: how far into their mass migration did these book-burnings begin, and how was integration doing before that? (seeing as how you're blaming book-burning—which, without examining things further, I assume to be a political stunt distastefully attempting to make a point/draw attention to the issue—for the integration difficulties.)
- anamax 5y ago
  It's not okay to disrespect some religions but it is acceptable, praiseworthy even, to disrespect others. That will end well.
  - Gnob 5y ago
    >That will end well. I don't think people care when you start disrespecting their religion. I would love to hear any scientific / fruitful / reasonable discussions about why my religion is invalid if you got any, but mere mockery? I am sure that will end well.
    - anamax 5y ago
      > I don't think people care when you start disrespecting their religion. That depends on the people, or is it the religion? > I would love to hear any scientific / fruitful / reasonable discussions about why my religion is invalid if you got any Not relevant to my point.
      - Gnob 5y ago
        > That depends on the people, or is it the religion? Not sure what you mean, can you elaborate?
        anamax 5y ago
        In some instances, "disrespecting a religion" results in considerable uproar and even violence. Said uproar/violence is committed by people but I'm asking if the cause is the people or the religion.
AvocadoPanic 5y ago
Watching others burn books you hold sacred is one of the costs of admission to western civilization. Certainly the French have had to watch whole churches burn. If you're unable to be civilized there are plenty of places where this sort of response is acceptable. Perhaps a draw the prophet contest next.
- Gnob 5y ago
  >If you're unable to be civilized there are plenty of places where this sort of response is acceptable. I think you are misunderstanding what being civilized means. being civilized or not has literally nothing to have with secularism or religion, you trying to make it equal to atheism is just gaslighting. and people are going to get out, nobody is fancying your nazi crap under "Freedom of speech". people have been getting out of france, and soon will be getting out of sweden and to hell with your freedoms. You can have all the cuckery you want, just keep it inside your borders, and we will die or find a way to live holding to our religion and dignity, and to teach our kids to do so too. one last thing, Christianity isn't Islam, period. The Muslims didn't commit war crimes, try to ethnically cleanse people or whatnot. They lived in peace with other nations and their war ethics are far better than yours. and had peace treaties and were pretty civilized, the only difference was, they were not cucks they would defend their religion and principles and honour and would die for it. and cuckery != civility Muslims are commanded to be civilised and well behaved, go to the nearest mosque in your area, make up a reasonable or even unreasonable question about Islam, just to see how people act, do they bark or bite or are they civilised and merely hold their beliefs very dear to their hearts, you have to check for yourself, because who knows, they might actually be savages.
  - AvocadoPanic 5y ago
    I made no religious requirements for civilization only behavioral. You can't riot when you perceive insults to you religion or ethnicity and be civilized in the west. It's not tolerated behavior. This is how we manage our multipolar societies with a variety of stakeholders. This is a feature, just because you don't see or understand the purpose does not mean it serves no purpose. With out this we could go back to killing catholics for their instance on synergism and semipelagianism instead of sola fide.
arinlen 5y ago
> Bigotry is a piece of jargon meaning “those who hate them”. What else do you call somebody burning a religious book for the sole purpose of generating a response? Would you prefer fascist? Nihilistic performance artist? Regardless of what you wish to call a random guy who feels compelled to mishandle a religious book, why do you feel this warrants massive riots which extend for days and target society as a whole? And what reaction do you think these massive riots draws from a whole country regarding the presence of these problematic communities of asylum-seekers-turned-rioters? Do you think a person who grew up embracing the founding principles of a liberal democracy will look at their private and public property being attacked and destroyed and come out thinking that their community benefits from the presence of these newly-arrived rioters?