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From my experience working as a PM with a medical/educational/hardware/software product, I think everyone finds this process is extremely challenging. First su

From my experience working as a PM with a medical/educational/hardware/software product, I think everyone finds this process is extremely challenging. First surprising thing I learned is that users don't usually actually have the will to spend any amount of time giving feedback. But they will avoid admitting it. The second discouraging thing is that when you do get them to sit down and talk, you will find that they're really good at subverting and evading any sort of plan you might have had. And then finally, after you have managed to collect information, it can be extremely difficult to interpret the results and come back with clear insightful ideas for changes and improvements in the product. To me, interviewing and talking to users is something between the role of an anthropologist and journalist. You sort of have to charm them enough for them to open up, but you also have to maintain scepticism about what they tell you. You have to be inquisitive. And on top of that you have to be able to set aside your own interpretations and thoughts so as not to tip the scales. It can be emotionally draining, especially when you have your own convictions. I work with engineers and they hate talking to users. The process can be very vague and often feels fruitless to them. Engineers can be stubborn and hold on to their worldview because they strongly believe theirs is objective and there should only be right and wrong answers. I don't know what it's like at a smaller or larger scale. I can imagine some things are easier, and some are harder. A large company may have real resources to spend on finding the answers which can bring more people to the table. A single-person operation might not have those resources but could be sympathetic enough to bring individuals to the table based on sympathy. However, when you make discoveries and insights, those are things that can make or break your entire product. It's almost like panning for gold or fishing, you spend a lot of time searching and in doubt, and then you come across that one idea that really makes it all work. Anyways those are my thoughts. It's incredibly satisfying and I love it but I hate it.

germinalphrase 5y ago
This sounds remarkably like my job as a high school teacher. Depending on what else it entails, I bet I would enjoy a similar role. Thanks for the thoughts.
- goldenchrome 5y ago
  I suggest you look into “UX Research”. That’s precisely the role described by the parent comment. They work on a product team with designers, engineers, and PMs to help everyone else understand the needs of the user. They also help define who the user should be based on the needs of different kinds of users. It’s a pretty important role in most user-facing tech companies.
  - germinalphrase 5y ago
    I absolutely will. I’ve looked at UX more generally as a possible career alternative and believe I would be good at it. Can you speak at all to the career prospects/lifestyle of UXR?
    - MailleQuiMaille 5y ago
      In terms of career prospects, you'd work with a lot of designers and product managers, so you could expect similar growths. I personnaly find this work very fulfilling, as it blends my social science expertise and my tech passion. And if anything, this thread and the answers are the living proof that the job will be needed for a while !
      - germinalphrase 5y ago
        Glad to hear it. Thank you. As a follow up: my intuition is that a UX Researcher would first enter as a UX Designer. Is this accurate in your experience, or are there paths for direct entry into UXR?
        goldenchrome 5y ago
        In design school, they briefly teach you how to run user studies. And, in very small companies, they sometimes get the designer to run user studies so they don’t have to hire a separate researcher. However, UXR is really a separate discipline and every larger company I know (>a few hundred employees) hires dedicated UXRs. Most UXRs have a natural interest in people. Often they come from PhD programs in psychology or sociology (easiest route). But I’ve seen plenty come from a bachelors program, or other “people” fields like sales and marketing. With your background I’m sure you could tell a compelling story about why you’re a fit for the role. If I were you I’d try to learn as much about UXR methodologies from books or online, and then try to get a job doing UXR at a small company. No need to do UX Design first—that’s a separate skill set.
shalmanese 5y ago
People really don't have any passion for talking about your solution because they don't really care about you and you should take any discussion of solutions with a large grain of salt because customers are not PMs. But people are passionate about talking about their problems and that's where you should orient your discussions on. Don't ask about your product at all during PM interviews, simply try to understand the problems users are facing and figure out what ways your product is or is not addressing those problems. The biggest mistake I see PMs make is coming in with an over optimism bias and assuming that your product must be top of mind for all users when the reality is that the most often scenario you discover from user interviews is that the problem you're trying to solve is of relatively minor importance to most people.
- matt_the_bass 5y ago
  Yeah they’d buy magic wands if they solved their problem. They don’t care about your solution. They care about their solution.
  - djbusby 5y ago
    One frequent market research question starts with: if you had magic wand ... I've see it at Lays, P&G, Google, Mars and others. It seems a great trick to get humans to cast off the current status quo.
- scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago
  Harsh but very true.
- bspear 5y ago
  Ya your product is your entire world. But it's just a small thing for customers (esp. before you find traction) Helps to know exactly what type of feedback you're looking for. Frame any ask as a way to help them [save time / money etc]. And come up with open-ended questions. Some good templates here: https://giddy-amusement-c74.notion.site/Interview-customers-with-purpose-afb6a66de80d4bc0b20f773aa8f9ad57 https://giddy-amusement-c74.notion.site/Interview-customers-...
- 5y ago
monksy 5y ago
The people who have to deal with your software when it's bad are more than willing to talk to you. However, if you make it super hard or ignore them when it's not flattering or doesn't match up with your plan.. you get what you deserve.
coder-3 5y ago
My experience has been very different. People have been quite happy to chat about their experience using the product and the pain-points uncovered were consistent across users. In a nutshell, what we did was email users asking for a 30-45 minute remote interview in exchange for $50 gift card. We started the meetings letting the user know that there are no wrong answers, that it's quite informal and they can leave at any time. We then spent the first half of the interview finding out who the user is, what they do and how they use the product. The second half was spent uncovering pain-points and maybe even asking users to share their screen and show us. We'd take notes during the interviews and then once we've done a few we'll collate the notes at which point the improvements to make to the product would become obvious.
autoexec 5y ago
> First surprising thing I learned is that users don't usually actually have the will to spend any amount of time giving feedback. People love to give feedback, and they especially to complain. If you have enough users they'll do it entirely on their own, creating forums and subreddits to discuss a particular program or service. Get your users talking to each other about your stuff and it's much much easier. When I dismiss a plea for leaving feedback it's usually because I was bothered with the request while in the middle of a task I was trying to complete, I was asked to hand over personal information (like an email address) to some random 3rd party hired to collect the data, or it seemed like a scam (like "rate/review my product and get a free X!"
ntlk 5y ago
This is why it’s helpful to work with researchers, who know how to structure the approach to get the answers you’re looking for. They’ll highlight what you can and can’t learn through different approaches and advise on the level of confidence in each insight. Worth their weight in gold.

germinalphrase 5y ago

This sounds remarkably like my job as a high school teacher. Depending on what else it entails, I bet I would enjoy a similar role. Thanks for the thoughts.

goldenchrome 5y ago
I suggest you look into “UX Research”. That’s precisely the role described by the parent comment. They work on a product team with designers, engineers, and PMs to help everyone else understand the needs of the user. They also help define who the user should be based on the needs of different kinds of users. It’s a pretty important role in most user-facing tech companies.
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  I absolutely will. I’ve looked at UX more generally as a possible career alternative and believe I would be good at it. Can you speak at all to the career prospects/lifestyle of UXR?
  - MailleQuiMaille 5y ago
    In terms of career prospects, you'd work with a lot of designers and product managers, so you could expect similar growths. I personnaly find this work very fulfilling, as it blends my social science expertise and my tech passion. And if anything, this thread and the answers are the living proof that the job will be needed for a while !
    - germinalphrase 5y ago
      Glad to hear it. Thank you. As a follow up: my intuition is that a UX Researcher would first enter as a UX Designer. Is this accurate in your experience, or are there paths for direct entry into UXR?
      - goldenchrome 5y ago
        In design school, they briefly teach you how to run user studies. And, in very small companies, they sometimes get the designer to run user studies so they don’t have to hire a separate researcher. However, UXR is really a separate discipline and every larger company I know (>a few hundred employees) hires dedicated UXRs. Most UXRs have a natural interest in people. Often they come from PhD programs in psychology or sociology (easiest route). But I’ve seen plenty come from a bachelors program, or other “people” fields like sales and marketing. With your background I’m sure you could tell a compelling story about why you’re a fit for the role. If I were you I’d try to learn as much about UXR methodologies from books or online, and then try to get a job doing UXR at a small company. No need to do UX Design first—that’s a separate skill set.

shalmanese 5y ago

People really don't have any passion for talking about your solution because they don't really care about you and you should take any discussion of solutions with a large grain of salt because customers are not PMs. But people are passionate about talking about their problems and that's where you should orient your discussions on. Don't ask about your product at all during PM interviews, simply try to understand the problems users are facing and figure out what ways your product is or is not addressing those problems. The biggest mistake I see PMs make is coming in with an over optimism bias and assuming that your product must be top of mind for all users when the reality is that the most often scenario you discover from user interviews is that the problem you're trying to solve is of relatively minor importance to most people.

matt_the_bass 5y ago
Yeah they’d buy magic wands if they solved their problem. They don’t care about your solution. They care about their solution.
- djbusby 5y ago
  One frequent market research question starts with: if you had magic wand ... I've see it at Lays, P&G, Google, Mars and others. It seems a great trick to get humans to cast off the current status quo.
scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago
Harsh but very true.
bspear 5y ago
Ya your product is your entire world. But it's just a small thing for customers (esp. before you find traction) Helps to know exactly what type of feedback you're looking for. Frame any ask as a way to help them [save time / money etc]. And come up with open-ended questions. Some good templates here: https://giddy-amusement-c74.notion.site/Interview-customers-with-purpose-afb6a66de80d4bc0b20f773aa8f9ad57 https://giddy-amusement-c74.notion.site/Interview-customers-...
5y ago

monksy 5y ago

The people who have to deal with your software when it's bad are more than willing to talk to you. However, if you make it super hard or ignore them when it's not flattering or doesn't match up with your plan.. you get what you deserve.

coder-3 5y ago

My experience has been very different. People have been quite happy to chat about their experience using the product and the pain-points uncovered were consistent across users. In a nutshell, what we did was email users asking for a 30-45 minute remote interview in exchange for $50 gift card. We started the meetings letting the user know that there are no wrong answers, that it's quite informal and they can leave at any time. We then spent the first half of the interview finding out who the user is, what they do and how they use the product. The second half was spent uncovering pain-points and maybe even asking users to share their screen and show us. We'd take notes during the interviews and then once we've done a few we'll collate the notes at which point the improvements to make to the product would become obvious.

autoexec 5y ago

> First surprising thing I learned is that users don't usually actually have the will to spend any amount of time giving feedback. People love to give feedback, and they especially to complain. If you have enough users they'll do it entirely on their own, creating forums and subreddits to discuss a particular program or service. Get your users talking to each other about your stuff and it's much much easier. When I dismiss a plea for leaving feedback it's usually because I was bothered with the request while in the middle of a task I was trying to complete, I was asked to hand over personal information (like an email address) to some random 3rd party hired to collect the data, or it seemed like a scam (like "rate/review my product and get a free X!"

ntlk 5y ago

This is why it’s helpful to work with researchers, who know how to structure the approach to get the answers you’re looking for. They’ll highlight what you can and can’t learn through different approaches and advise on the level of confidence in each insight. Worth their weight in gold.