7 ms·

Does being attractive really help you in getting hired in engineering positions? I would understand client-facing/sales jobs, but unsure it would help in engine

Does being attractive really help you in getting hired in engineering positions? I would understand client-facing/sales jobs, but unsure it would help in engineering roles

astura 4y ago
Yes. People who are attractive are perceived as more talented, more trustworthy, and more intelligent. Those are qualities you want in an engineering hire. Beyond that attractive people are more confident.
libraryatnight 4y ago
It's not a strategic choice - it's a bias. Good looking candidates were perceived as more competent.
- autoexec 4y ago
  I guess a strategic choice would be hiring an actor to pose for your photo
  - libraryatnight 4y ago
    Yeah, I'm going to need a model version of myself on retainer. I'm picturing something like the surrogate setup on Arrested Development ;)
space_fountain 4y ago
I think you have a baked in assumption that hiring is fair. Because you might think that when interacting with clients it makes sense to hire based on looks or at least implicitly it sounds like that's what you're thinking. But we have lots of biases that don't actually make sense. Thinking good looking people are somehow better seems totally likely to be one. And, in fact, this study says is a bias
- Natsu 4y ago
  The study is kind of weird, because that's simply not how things are conducted during hiring: nobody puts their picture on their resume. I think some other countries do, but the norms are decidedly against that in the USA, probably to avoid biases like this.
  - joshgachnang 4y ago
    But it is very common to go search out someone's LinkedIn, which does have a profile picture.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
      > LinkedIn, which does have a profile picture Maybe yours does, but plenty don't.
      - serenitylater 4y ago
    - Natsu 4y ago
      This research makes it seem like a good idea not to provide pictures in general.
firephonestival 4y ago
IME it depends on the hiring funnel. It does not matter if you are interviewing for an opening which has been set aside for you. (Niche skills, nepotism, former colleagues, etc.) It does matter if you are going for a fungible position with many applicants. Not a lot, but people are biased to hire others who they think they'd enjoy spending time around. That bias helps attractive people, as well as people who look and act like part of an org's "in-group" (if one exists). It's ugly and gross, but it seems pretty fundamental to human nature.
oh_sigh 4y ago
I don't think it is a bad question to ask. In fact, there might even be negative biases against attractiveness for engineers. Will a dude with cheeto dust on his star wars t-shirt give a fair shake to a good looking woman who is wearing business attire and makeup, compared to another dude in a t-shirt? Let's do a test. Who would you imagine is the better engineer of these two old timey people? https://i.imgur.com/omRXYde.png https://i.imgur.com/omRXYde.png and https://i.imgur.com/3QDIkme.png https://i.imgur.com/3QDIkme.png
- version_five 4y ago
  There is definitely (well, anecdotally) negative bias against "well put together" attractive engineers. Picture a software engineer, male or female, chances are your stereotype isn't a glamorous person in a flashy suit with an expensive haircut and grooming. And if you saw someone like that, you'd be suspicious of their technical ability. It's a sterotype, but it's not all that weird. I don't think it's necessarily about being attractive with all else being equal, it's more about the level of effort in one's appearance. Once that is accounted for, it's probably likely there is some of the usual bias towards better looking people.
  - joshgachnang 4y ago
    Also anecdotal: When I was freelancing, I'd specifically make sure to be wearing my glasses and a hoodie during the first meeting with potential clients. I had better responses and they seemed to implicitly trust that I was competent vs wearing contacts. Whereas on a dating profile/first dates, I would always wear contacts because I think I look more handsome that way. Biases are frustrating and annoying and I used to think they weren't worth worrying about. Then I went from obese to healthy weight and noticed the ways people treated me differently. Now I acknowledge that they have an effect and try to remove my own, but it's not perfect.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    There's a sweet spot I think. Wearing a suit? Probably a business guy, not to be trusted. But raggedy T-Shirt? Ah, that's just unprofessional. The ideal male fashion icon: Mr. Rogers, classy but not trying too hard, everybody trusts a nice sweater with a collared shirt under.
thr0waway001 4y ago
I'd argue it can hinder sometimes. I hate to say it but it probably depends on the gender. What I will say is anecdotal and probably controversial but it is just my observation: I've seen all kinds of talented male devs and there's huge variance in their looks. Some good looking and some not. But when it comes to talented female devs: they all looked a certain type. I'll let you people decide what I mean. Yes, profiling people sucks but .... sometimes it yields results.
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  > But when it comes to talented female devs: they all looked a certain type. I'll let you people decide what I mean. It's a throw away account, can you just say what you mean? Honestly no type came to mind when I did a quick mental scrollback.
  - brimble 4y ago
    Not the parent, but I assume they mean the nose stud, green or blue hair that looks like it's needed to be redone for a month (but was, in fact, dyed yesterday), and at least one full-sleeve tattoo, look. [EDIT] For the record, I've seen women with that look who weren't very good, and I've seen plenty who looked different from that who were good. I don't agree with their broader assessment.
    - LAC-Tech 4y ago
      Definitely seen that fashion, but never in a coding context. Must be an SF thing.
  - racl101 4y ago
    Ehhh frumpy?
justanother 4y ago
"Attractive" is a wee bit subjective here, but I can tell you my career took off after I spent a small fortune on my teeth and upgraded my mic and webcam setup to near-studio-grade. If it's a coincidence, it's the most incredible case of coincidental curve-fitting that I've ever personally witnessed. It by no means guarantees you'll get the job, demonstration of competence still matters, but it sure helps break ties.
- tubalcain 4y ago
  Attractiveness is not subjective, as facial features deemed attractive are universally accepted across both time periods and cultures. Tallness for men is always seen as better than shortness.
Manuel_D 4y ago
It probably matters less, but unconscious bias likely still exists to an extent. Hopefully remote work would help establish practices like interviewing over zoom with a camera off. There's potential concerns about someone else completing the coding challenges for the candidate, or otherwise more blatant cheating. But that could be accomplished by, say, capturing video and only reviewing it after a hiring decision has been made.
rybosome 4y ago
Being attractive helps you in everything. Humans have a fundamental positive bias towards those they perceive as attractive. At the risk of sounding arrogant, let me share my personal experience. Over a period of a year in my early thirties, I became more conventionally attractive by: purchasing clothes from StitchFix (a styling service), getting my hair cut regularly by a stylist, adopting a regular grooming routine, and exercising (especially weight lifting) frequently. Prior to this I dressed like a negatively stereotypical engineer with baggy/unstylish clothing, little to no grooming routine, and little to no exercise. People of all sexes and sexual orientations unquestionably treat me better than they did before. They are more open, more willing to give me their time and attention, quicker to trust me. I’m given favors like extra services (a barista telling me I can cut the line and give her my order directly), or small free things (bartender comping a drink for no reason). And frankly, people just look at me more. I used to feel completely invisible walking down the street, never catching anyone’s eye - not the case anymore. Because the change happened over a relatively short period of time, and because I spent my entire adult life prior not engaging in these intentional efforts to be “attractive”, the contrast was extremely obvious. There is a dark side to all this that I’m not going to get into, but I will say that having experienced the contrast I do feel motivated to maintain some level of attractiveness for the preferential treatment.
- throwawayboise 4y ago
  Absolutely nothing wrong with taking advantage of improved grooming, hygiene, physical fitness, and clothing. These are easy things that anyone can do to gain advantages in most areas of life.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    > These are easy things that anyone can do to gain advantages in most areas of life. That seems unlikely. Most of us could stand to gain some degree of advantage, but I'm pretty there some people whose appearance is unfortunate enough that no amount of grooming, hygiene, physical fitness, or clothing will ever compensate for what fate or genetics has burdened them with.

Does being attractive really help you in getting hired in engineering positions? I would understand client-facing/sales jobs, but unsure it would help in engineering roles

astura 4y ago

Yes. People who are attractive are perceived as more talented, more trustworthy, and more intelligent. Those are qualities you want in an engineering hire. Beyond that attractive people are more confident.

libraryatnight 4y ago

It's not a strategic choice - it's a bias. Good looking candidates were perceived as more competent.

autoexec 4y ago
I guess a strategic choice would be hiring an actor to pose for your photo
- libraryatnight 4y ago
  Yeah, I'm going to need a model version of myself on retainer. I'm picturing something like the surrogate setup on Arrested Development ;)

space_fountain 4y ago

I think you have a baked in assumption that hiring is fair. Because you might think that when interacting with clients it makes sense to hire based on looks or at least implicitly it sounds like that's what you're thinking. But we have lots of biases that don't actually make sense. Thinking good looking people are somehow better seems totally likely to be one. And, in fact, this study says is a bias

Natsu 4y ago
The study is kind of weird, because that's simply not how things are conducted during hiring: nobody puts their picture on their resume. I think some other countries do, but the norms are decidedly against that in the USA, probably to avoid biases like this.
- joshgachnang 4y ago
  But it is very common to go search out someone's LinkedIn, which does have a profile picture.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    > LinkedIn, which does have a profile picture Maybe yours does, but plenty don't.
    - serenitylater 4y ago
  - Natsu 4y ago
    This research makes it seem like a good idea not to provide pictures in general.

firephonestival 4y ago

IME it depends on the hiring funnel. It does not matter if you are interviewing for an opening which has been set aside for you. (Niche skills, nepotism, former colleagues, etc.) It does matter if you are going for a fungible position with many applicants. Not a lot, but people are biased to hire others who they think they'd enjoy spending time around. That bias helps attractive people, as well as people who look and act like part of an org's "in-group" (if one exists). It's ugly and gross, but it seems pretty fundamental to human nature.

oh_sigh 4y ago

I don't think it is a bad question to ask. In fact, there might even be negative biases against attractiveness for engineers. Will a dude with cheeto dust on his star wars t-shirt give a fair shake to a good looking woman who is wearing business attire and makeup, compared to another dude in a t-shirt? Let's do a test. Who would you imagine is the better engineer of these two old timey people? https://i.imgur.com/omRXYde.png https://i.imgur.com/omRXYde.png and https://i.imgur.com/3QDIkme.png https://i.imgur.com/3QDIkme.png

version_five 4y ago
There is definitely (well, anecdotally) negative bias against "well put together" attractive engineers. Picture a software engineer, male or female, chances are your stereotype isn't a glamorous person in a flashy suit with an expensive haircut and grooming. And if you saw someone like that, you'd be suspicious of their technical ability. It's a sterotype, but it's not all that weird. I don't think it's necessarily about being attractive with all else being equal, it's more about the level of effort in one's appearance. Once that is accounted for, it's probably likely there is some of the usual bias towards better looking people.
- joshgachnang 4y ago
  Also anecdotal: When I was freelancing, I'd specifically make sure to be wearing my glasses and a hoodie during the first meeting with potential clients. I had better responses and they seemed to implicitly trust that I was competent vs wearing contacts. Whereas on a dating profile/first dates, I would always wear contacts because I think I look more handsome that way. Biases are frustrating and annoying and I used to think they weren't worth worrying about. Then I went from obese to healthy weight and noticed the ways people treated me differently. Now I acknowledge that they have an effect and try to remove my own, but it's not perfect.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  There's a sweet spot I think. Wearing a suit? Probably a business guy, not to be trusted. But raggedy T-Shirt? Ah, that's just unprofessional. The ideal male fashion icon: Mr. Rogers, classy but not trying too hard, everybody trusts a nice sweater with a collared shirt under.

thr0waway001 4y ago

I'd argue it can hinder sometimes. I hate to say it but it probably depends on the gender. What I will say is anecdotal and probably controversial but it is just my observation: I've seen all kinds of talented male devs and there's huge variance in their looks. Some good looking and some not. But when it comes to talented female devs: they all looked a certain type. I'll let you people decide what I mean. Yes, profiling people sucks but .... sometimes it yields results.

LAC-Tech 4y ago
> But when it comes to talented female devs: they all looked a certain type. I'll let you people decide what I mean. It's a throw away account, can you just say what you mean? Honestly no type came to mind when I did a quick mental scrollback.
- brimble 4y ago
  Not the parent, but I assume they mean the nose stud, green or blue hair that looks like it's needed to be redone for a month (but was, in fact, dyed yesterday), and at least one full-sleeve tattoo, look. [EDIT] For the record, I've seen women with that look who weren't very good, and I've seen plenty who looked different from that who were good. I don't agree with their broader assessment.
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    Definitely seen that fashion, but never in a coding context. Must be an SF thing.
- racl101 4y ago
  Ehhh frumpy?

justanother 4y ago

"Attractive" is a wee bit subjective here, but I can tell you my career took off after I spent a small fortune on my teeth and upgraded my mic and webcam setup to near-studio-grade. If it's a coincidence, it's the most incredible case of coincidental curve-fitting that I've ever personally witnessed. It by no means guarantees you'll get the job, demonstration of competence still matters, but it sure helps break ties.

tubalcain 4y ago
Attractiveness is not subjective, as facial features deemed attractive are universally accepted across both time periods and cultures. Tallness for men is always seen as better than shortness.

Manuel_D 4y ago

It probably matters less, but unconscious bias likely still exists to an extent. Hopefully remote work would help establish practices like interviewing over zoom with a camera off. There's potential concerns about someone else completing the coding challenges for the candidate, or otherwise more blatant cheating. But that could be accomplished by, say, capturing video and only reviewing it after a hiring decision has been made.

rybosome 4y ago

Being attractive helps you in everything. Humans have a fundamental positive bias towards those they perceive as attractive. At the risk of sounding arrogant, let me share my personal experience. Over a period of a year in my early thirties, I became more conventionally attractive by: purchasing clothes from StitchFix (a styling service), getting my hair cut regularly by a stylist, adopting a regular grooming routine, and exercising (especially weight lifting) frequently. Prior to this I dressed like a negatively stereotypical engineer with baggy/unstylish clothing, little to no grooming routine, and little to no exercise. People of all sexes and sexual orientations unquestionably treat me better than they did before. They are more open, more willing to give me their time and attention, quicker to trust me. I’m given favors like extra services (a barista telling me I can cut the line and give her my order directly), or small free things (bartender comping a drink for no reason). And frankly, people just look at me more. I used to feel completely invisible walking down the street, never catching anyone’s eye - not the case anymore. Because the change happened over a relatively short period of time, and because I spent my entire adult life prior not engaging in these intentional efforts to be “attractive”, the contrast was extremely obvious. There is a dark side to all this that I’m not going to get into, but I will say that having experienced the contrast I do feel motivated to maintain some level of attractiveness for the preferential treatment.

throwawayboise 4y ago
Absolutely nothing wrong with taking advantage of improved grooming, hygiene, physical fitness, and clothing. These are easy things that anyone can do to gain advantages in most areas of life.
- autoexec 4y ago
  > These are easy things that anyone can do to gain advantages in most areas of life. That seems unlikely. Most of us could stand to gain some degree of advantage, but I'm pretty there some people whose appearance is unfortunate enough that no amount of grooming, hygiene, physical fitness, or clothing will ever compensate for what fate or genetics has burdened them with.