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It's a different argument though, it's an organic material to start with which existent long before the industrial revolution. It's also 100% required for our s

It's a different argument though, it's an organic material to start with which existent long before the industrial revolution. It's also 100% required for our survival. Fire retardants which are known to cause cancer or birth defects, I'm not so sure. Then there's the fact that Oxyten is literally everwhere, do you want those retardants to be everywhere too, in your lungs?

ben_w 5y ago
> Fire retardants which are known to cause cancer or birth defects, I'm not so sure. On the other hand, they’re very good at stopping you from burning to death. Even the ones we have banned (or will ban) and replaced with others are very good at preventing a really really bad way to die. Also, quite a lot of toxic things are also organic, regardless of if you’re using that word in the chemical sense or the “it’s natural” sense.
- zionic 5y ago
  They’re not good though. Hold an open flame or shorting electrical wire to a coated surface and it will burn just the same. Flame retardants only really give you a slight edge vs a burning cigarette on a couch. We coated our couches, clothes, carpets etc in cancerous chemicals to save a few smokers that passed out drunk
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    Burn isn’t binary, rate matters to give humans time to flee…
    - zionic 5y ago
      Flame retardants have no measurable impact on burn rate once the burn has started. We literally coated everything in carcinogenic chemicals for the dumbest of reasons.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    In addition to what @mensetmanusman says: They also save the families of those smokers, and people like my sister who knocked over a candle and had enough time to put it out despite not having a fire extinguisher, and people like me who forgot food on the stove one time, or people like my dad who missed when pouring burning brandy onto a Christmas puddings. If you still find this unconvincing, ask yourself why life expectancy has gone up rather than down since the invention and mandated use of fire retardants.
    - zionic 5y ago
      My argument is the net harm of coating everything in carcinogens and endocrine disruptors outweighs the fringe benefit. Flame retardants don’t eliminate fire, they give you an extremely small chance of preventing one in very specific scenarios.

ben_w 5y ago

> Fire retardants which are known to cause cancer or birth defects, I'm not so sure. On the other hand, they’re very good at stopping you from burning to death. Even the ones we have banned (or will ban) and replaced with others are very good at preventing a really really bad way to die. Also, quite a lot of toxic things are also organic, regardless of if you’re using that word in the chemical sense or the “it’s natural” sense.

zionic 5y ago
They’re not good though. Hold an open flame or shorting electrical wire to a coated surface and it will burn just the same. Flame retardants only really give you a slight edge vs a burning cigarette on a couch. We coated our couches, clothes, carpets etc in cancerous chemicals to save a few smokers that passed out drunk
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  Burn isn’t binary, rate matters to give humans time to flee…
  - zionic 5y ago
    Flame retardants have no measurable impact on burn rate once the burn has started. We literally coated everything in carcinogenic chemicals for the dumbest of reasons.
- ben_w 5y ago
  In addition to what @mensetmanusman says: They also save the families of those smokers, and people like my sister who knocked over a candle and had enough time to put it out despite not having a fire extinguisher, and people like me who forgot food on the stove one time, or people like my dad who missed when pouring burning brandy onto a Christmas puddings. If you still find this unconvincing, ask yourself why life expectancy has gone up rather than down since the invention and mandated use of fire retardants.
  - zionic 5y ago
    My argument is the net harm of coating everything in carcinogens and endocrine disruptors outweighs the fringe benefit. Flame retardants don’t eliminate fire, they give you an extremely small chance of preventing one in very specific scenarios.