6 ms·

I'm heartened by the interest in better packaging and it seems like it's having a moment. Last week Cruz Foam[0] (probably a direct competitor) had an announcem

I'm heartened by the interest in better packaging and it seems like it's having a moment. Last week Cruz Foam[0] (probably a direct competitor) had an announcement that it had some celebrity investors[1]. It's probably not a popular opinion but I think adding more regulations or incentives (tax breaks) to discourage the use of non-biodegradable packaging, especially in foods, is long overdue. [0] - https://www.cruzfoam.com https://www.cruzfoam.com [1] - https://www.cruzfoam.com/post/meet-our-new-investors-advisors https://www.cruzfoam.com/post/meet-our-new-investors-advisor...

bluSCALE4 4y ago
Yeah, we have incentives to insulate homes but they all use terrible tech. The best solution still off-gases and can be dangerous if done improperly.
- selfsimilar 4y ago
  Home insulation has a longer useful life than most packaging, but you're right that it still usually ends up in a landfill. However the current incentives for home insulation are very different - usually to reduce home heating/cooling costs and reduced energy consumption is usually an environmentally sound policy. Should there be further incentives to encourage insulation alternatives which have a more eco-friendly end of life? Absolutely. And that is likely a harder problem given the productive lifetime of an average home, but definitely a worthy place to also put further incentives.
  - myshpa 4y ago
    I think one of the solutions may be based on hemp, currently known as hempcrete or hemp concrete - essentially a mix of hemp hurd (the woody essence of the hemp plant), hydraulic lime, and water. You mix it up and then all you need is just the wooden frame (if you're building load bearing walls), then you wrap it in hempcrete (floors, walls & roof), apply some mud plaster and you're done. No need for 6-10 layers full of plastics & glues. Thanks to use of lime instead of cement the building even captures CO2, as the walls literally turn into stone over time. Some hemp buildings are 200+ years old, in some cave in india they've even found 1500 y.o. hempcrete, and you can compost whole building at EOL. Some other benefits: non-toxic, no off-gassing, no solvents, mold resistance, high vapor permeability, humidity control, durable, sustainable, carbon sequestration, fire and pest resistance, passive self regulation of temperature and humidity, great insulator
    - westurner 4y ago
      Can hempcrete be made from Mars or Moon aggregate instead of lime, and 4d printed? FWIU, lime requires coral for production? Is lime sustainable? Alternative solutions for: structural wood frame in a hempcrete structure: stacking hempcrete blocks on structural forms that are stronger and more insulting than structural concrete; green concrete, a carbon and thermal gradient sink; and Hempwood, which is apparently stronger than spec lumber of the same dimensions as well.
      - fritztastic 4y ago
        most lime comes from limestone, extracted by quarries/mines- although sometimes it is sourced from coral the process of producing lime can involve a number of not-very-sustainable steps, hopefully which can be substituted for more environmentally responsible alternatives
    - dahfizz 4y ago
      How does hempcrete respond to water? It seems fundamentally difficult to have a material that can hold up for decades but then biodegrade once we decide it is EOL.
      - ethanwillis 4y ago
        Not about hempcrete specifically, but I can see how you could potentially make a material like this. All these materials used in construction we can assume have an environment with a range of variables they operate in. If this material will never be exposed to high temperatures for example while in a typical operating environment... then maybe you can design the material to be able to biodegrade when heat is applied? Just think about how even typical composting works where the point is to keep temperatures of the compost pile going in order to aid the process of breaking the material down in an acceptable timeframe.
      - myshpa 4y ago
        It is waterproof ... please, see my other comment in this thread for a link to a relevant article.
- zionic 4y ago
  Look up “zip system 2.0 Matt Risinger” on YouTube. Seems like the best available today.
  - danans 4y ago
    Zip system sheathing, while great, is not enough. You still need either cavity wall insulation or exterior insulation or both. For cavity wall insulation, dense packed cellulose is a carbon negative option currently widely available.
    - theluketaylor 4y ago
      Zip-R sheathing is exterior insulation, from R-3 up to R-12 https://www.huberwood.com/zip-system/insulated-r-sheathing https://www.huberwood.com/zip-system/insulated-r-sheathing
      - danans 4y ago
        Minimum code wall insulation is R-13, and up to R-30 in colder climates. Even the best Zip-R isn't going to hit that on its own. And if you are building a new custom home, you'd be crazy not to surpass code for insulation, given the operational energy savings.
      - bradknowles 4y ago
        If you want to build to PassivHaus standards, you're going to need a lot more than that. Matt Risinger has some nice videos on examples of doing that on his "Build Show" channel on YouTube.
        zionic 4y ago
        Zip + metal stud + rockwool and you’re g2g
        bradknowles 4y ago
        You're going to need thicker stud walls and/or more exterior insulation than that, if you want to meet PaasivHaus standards.
- stuaxo 4y ago
  There's a company doing one based on plasma treated sheep's wool that looks good (if a little pricey). Their pitch is that unlike other sheep wool based insulation theirs doesn't have issues with insects moving in, I guess the high heat means it's not edible and absorb water any more. EDIT: Isolena in Austria is the company. They seem to be one of the only ones whose insulation is purely wool and doesn't have a bunch of recycled plastic in it as well. Heritage House has an (opinionated) article: https://www.heritage-house.org/stuff-about-old-buildings/insulation/sheepswool-its-green-clean-and-breathable.html https://www.heritage-house.org/stuff-about-old-buildings/ins... Edit 2: It's Plasma treated not heat treated. https://www.lehner-wool.com/en/brands/isolena.html https://www.lehner-wool.com/en/brands/isolena.html
  - CRUDite 4y ago
    There is a company called woolcool in the uk that produces wool sheets to replace styrofoam. The sheets are encased in thin perforated plastic. As as insulator it’s great, but it does get wet and it’s expensive. There are companies using it to deliver temp sensitive goods but if you do you have to get your customers to send it back to you to mitigate cost. No one talks about this and finding out the % of packaging returns is information no one volunteers. So you have to get them to return a box full and they also have to hang it over a chair or something to dry it out. Strip it out of the plastic and a dog or cat will go nuts rolling in it! WRT house insulation What happens if it gets wet. Moisture is mentioned in the article briefly but not really addressed properly. The mushroom product doesn’t have any info on thermal insulation properties. Which is the key market. As someone else mentioned, it’s vague
balaji1 4y ago
what is the toxicity of these compostable materials to humans and animals? Also do we understand long-term health impacts? Though these shouldn't be worse than the plastic/styrofoam that is so prevalent today.

bluSCALE4 4y ago

Yeah, we have incentives to insulate homes but they all use terrible tech. The best solution still off-gases and can be dangerous if done improperly.

selfsimilar 4y ago
Home insulation has a longer useful life than most packaging, but you're right that it still usually ends up in a landfill. However the current incentives for home insulation are very different - usually to reduce home heating/cooling costs and reduced energy consumption is usually an environmentally sound policy. Should there be further incentives to encourage insulation alternatives which have a more eco-friendly end of life? Absolutely. And that is likely a harder problem given the productive lifetime of an average home, but definitely a worthy place to also put further incentives.
- myshpa 4y ago
  I think one of the solutions may be based on hemp, currently known as hempcrete or hemp concrete - essentially a mix of hemp hurd (the woody essence of the hemp plant), hydraulic lime, and water. You mix it up and then all you need is just the wooden frame (if you're building load bearing walls), then you wrap it in hempcrete (floors, walls & roof), apply some mud plaster and you're done. No need for 6-10 layers full of plastics & glues. Thanks to use of lime instead of cement the building even captures CO2, as the walls literally turn into stone over time. Some hemp buildings are 200+ years old, in some cave in india they've even found 1500 y.o. hempcrete, and you can compost whole building at EOL. Some other benefits: non-toxic, no off-gassing, no solvents, mold resistance, high vapor permeability, humidity control, durable, sustainable, carbon sequestration, fire and pest resistance, passive self regulation of temperature and humidity, great insulator
  - westurner 4y ago
    Can hempcrete be made from Mars or Moon aggregate instead of lime, and 4d printed? FWIU, lime requires coral for production? Is lime sustainable? Alternative solutions for: structural wood frame in a hempcrete structure: stacking hempcrete blocks on structural forms that are stronger and more insulting than structural concrete; green concrete, a carbon and thermal gradient sink; and Hempwood, which is apparently stronger than spec lumber of the same dimensions as well.
    - fritztastic 4y ago
      most lime comes from limestone, extracted by quarries/mines- although sometimes it is sourced from coral the process of producing lime can involve a number of not-very-sustainable steps, hopefully which can be substituted for more environmentally responsible alternatives
  - dahfizz 4y ago
    How does hempcrete respond to water? It seems fundamentally difficult to have a material that can hold up for decades but then biodegrade once we decide it is EOL.
    - ethanwillis 4y ago
      Not about hempcrete specifically, but I can see how you could potentially make a material like this. All these materials used in construction we can assume have an environment with a range of variables they operate in. If this material will never be exposed to high temperatures for example while in a typical operating environment... then maybe you can design the material to be able to biodegrade when heat is applied? Just think about how even typical composting works where the point is to keep temperatures of the compost pile going in order to aid the process of breaking the material down in an acceptable timeframe.
    - myshpa 4y ago
      It is waterproof ... please, see my other comment in this thread for a link to a relevant article.
zionic 4y ago
Look up “zip system 2.0 Matt Risinger” on YouTube. Seems like the best available today.
- danans 4y ago
  Zip system sheathing, while great, is not enough. You still need either cavity wall insulation or exterior insulation or both. For cavity wall insulation, dense packed cellulose is a carbon negative option currently widely available.
  - theluketaylor 4y ago
    Zip-R sheathing is exterior insulation, from R-3 up to R-12 https://www.huberwood.com/zip-system/insulated-r-sheathing https://www.huberwood.com/zip-system/insulated-r-sheathing
    - danans 4y ago
      Minimum code wall insulation is R-13, and up to R-30 in colder climates. Even the best Zip-R isn't going to hit that on its own. And if you are building a new custom home, you'd be crazy not to surpass code for insulation, given the operational energy savings.
    - bradknowles 4y ago
      If you want to build to PassivHaus standards, you're going to need a lot more than that. Matt Risinger has some nice videos on examples of doing that on his "Build Show" channel on YouTube.
      - zionic 4y ago
        Zip + metal stud + rockwool and you’re g2g
        bradknowles 4y ago
        You're going to need thicker stud walls and/or more exterior insulation than that, if you want to meet PaasivHaus standards.
stuaxo 4y ago
There's a company doing one based on plasma treated sheep's wool that looks good (if a little pricey). Their pitch is that unlike other sheep wool based insulation theirs doesn't have issues with insects moving in, I guess the high heat means it's not edible and absorb water any more. EDIT: Isolena in Austria is the company. They seem to be one of the only ones whose insulation is purely wool and doesn't have a bunch of recycled plastic in it as well. Heritage House has an (opinionated) article: https://www.heritage-house.org/stuff-about-old-buildings/insulation/sheepswool-its-green-clean-and-breathable.html https://www.heritage-house.org/stuff-about-old-buildings/ins... Edit 2: It's Plasma treated not heat treated. https://www.lehner-wool.com/en/brands/isolena.html https://www.lehner-wool.com/en/brands/isolena.html
- CRUDite 4y ago
  There is a company called woolcool in the uk that produces wool sheets to replace styrofoam. The sheets are encased in thin perforated plastic. As as insulator it’s great, but it does get wet and it’s expensive. There are companies using it to deliver temp sensitive goods but if you do you have to get your customers to send it back to you to mitigate cost. No one talks about this and finding out the % of packaging returns is information no one volunteers. So you have to get them to return a box full and they also have to hang it over a chair or something to dry it out. Strip it out of the plastic and a dog or cat will go nuts rolling in it! WRT house insulation What happens if it gets wet. Moisture is mentioned in the article briefly but not really addressed properly. The mushroom product doesn’t have any info on thermal insulation properties. Which is the key market. As someone else mentioned, it’s vague

balaji1 4y ago

what is the toxicity of these compostable materials to humans and animals? Also do we understand long-term health impacts? Though these shouldn't be worse than the plastic/styrofoam that is so prevalent today.