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The trials nuked their own control groups though - https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/969143015/long-term-studies-of-covid-19-vaccines-hurt-by

by yucky 5y ago

The trials nuked their own control groups though - https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/969143015/long-term-studies-of-covid-19-vaccines-hurt-by-placebo-recipients-getting-immuni https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/9691430... In no other circumstance would those trials be considered scientifically sound when they intentionally destroyed their own control groups.

mikeyouse 5y ago
The trials didn't nuke their control groups... the efficacy of the vaccines were so high that the members of the control groups decided on their own to get vaccinated. Ensuring informed consent is a cornerstone of good medicine. Would we get better statistical power if more people had chosen to remain unvaccinated? Sure. Is it ethical to deny people a highly effective, life-saving vaccination to maintain that statistical power? Of course not. Nobody "intentionally destroyed" anything.. We don't even know how many chose to remain unvaccinated, it's likely enough to still be very informative. Why is it so easy for people to lie like this?
- yucky 5y ago
  > Would we get better statistical power if more people had chosen to remain unvaccinated? Sure. So...they nuked their control groups. I'm not sure why you start off your comment denying it, then explain that I was exactly right. There is no control group.
  - mikeyouse 5y ago
    You literally don't know that - the only evidence you have is articles saying that some of the people in the control groups opted to get the vaccine. And "they" didn't nuke their control groups -- you're implying this was something the pharma companies did, not something patients decided to do. "The control groups were nuked" is something you could claim, which is still overblown because you have no idea how many people actually chose to be vaccinated vs. not.
    - yucky 5y ago
      There literally is no control group anymore though, that isn't disputed. Once you make the vaccine available to the group that is not supposed to be vaccinated, you no longer have a control group. It doesn't matter if 20% of them got the vaccine or 100% of them did, at that point you can't get controlled data.

by yucky 5y ago

mikeyouse 5y ago

The trials didn't nuke their control groups... the efficacy of the vaccines were so high that the members of the control groups decided on their own to get vaccinated. Ensuring informed consent is a cornerstone of good medicine. Would we get better statistical power if more people had chosen to remain unvaccinated? Sure. Is it ethical to deny people a highly effective, life-saving vaccination to maintain that statistical power? Of course not. Nobody "intentionally destroyed" anything.. We don't even know how many chose to remain unvaccinated, it's likely enough to still be very informative. Why is it so easy for people to lie like this?

yucky 5y ago
> Would we get better statistical power if more people had chosen to remain unvaccinated? Sure. So...they nuked their control groups. I'm not sure why you start off your comment denying it, then explain that I was exactly right. There is no control group.
- mikeyouse 5y ago
  You literally don't know that - the only evidence you have is articles saying that some of the people in the control groups opted to get the vaccine. And "they" didn't nuke their control groups -- you're implying this was something the pharma companies did, not something patients decided to do. "The control groups were nuked" is something you could claim, which is still overblown because you have no idea how many people actually chose to be vaccinated vs. not.
  - yucky 5y ago
    There literally is no control group anymore though, that isn't disputed. Once you make the vaccine available to the group that is not supposed to be vaccinated, you no longer have a control group. It doesn't matter if 20% of them got the vaccine or 100% of them did, at that point you can't get controlled data.