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>There is not a single metric that decides if a programming language "wins" or not Yes there is: it's the number of currently running processes described by th

>There is not a single metric that decides if a programming language "wins" or not Yes there is: it's the number of currently running processes described by that language. In practice this means counting every tab in every browser on every device on Earth. Even the largest DC operators in the world, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, NSA, etc who run sophisticated bespoke software distribution systems that support all kinds of runtimes, cannot compare in number to everything else. (Although it wouldn't surprise me if one or more of them attempts to maintain a stateful process for every man woman and child on Earth. That's still not enough.)

saghm 5y ago
I think you misunderstand what GP meant; by "not a single metric", I don't think they mean "there is no metric" but "there's not solely one metric". The one you give is reasonable in some contexts, but not every language is trying to optimize for that. "Winning" is relative to how you define the game, and not everyone will agree your definition is the one they care about.
- javajosh 5y ago
  If people don't like an assertion on which I base my analysis they can and should throw out the result. I am making a bold assertion, but I really think its right, so if you understand it enough to disagree with it, I'll call that a win. But I personally think the success criteria I've specified is not debatable, except of course as fodder for those who like to debate.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    > But I personally think the success criteria I've specified is not debatable I take it as you see "success" in terms of programming languages as something objective then, not subjective?
WaffleIronMaker 5y ago
I mean, that's an interesting point, but you have defined winning only on a macroscopic scale. On an individual level, winning takes on much more subjective criteria, and I think that's what people typically need information about when making language decisions. Quantity of users is interesting, but I'm certainly not writing an OS in Python because it ranks higher than C on TIOBE, and I'm not going to discount smaller languages that I can use effectively on the sole merit that other languages are more popular. Languages are tools that solve a problem, and it is possible for them to both be used by relatively few people and still successfully solve a problem. For example, though Elixir is not as popular as Go, Elixir might win for me because I think it has a better concurrency model. Elixir is not globally used more than Go, but nonetheless it is my winner, and the people who pour their time into the product have still done an admirable job.
iostream24 5y ago
I have another metric called “performance” that JavaScript is not the winner of. JavaScript is a fact of life in web browsers, less so on servers. I really would only ever use Nodejs as a build tool on my dev box, but perhaps you can advise me of other uses. I don’t consider a long running public facing service to be a good fit for node due to such a VMs memory behavior over time.

saghm 5y ago

I think you misunderstand what GP meant; by "not a single metric", I don't think they mean "there is no metric" but "there's not solely one metric". The one you give is reasonable in some contexts, but not every language is trying to optimize for that. "Winning" is relative to how you define the game, and not everyone will agree your definition is the one they care about.

javajosh 5y ago
If people don't like an assertion on which I base my analysis they can and should throw out the result. I am making a bold assertion, but I really think its right, so if you understand it enough to disagree with it, I'll call that a win. But I personally think the success criteria I've specified is not debatable, except of course as fodder for those who like to debate.
- capableweb 5y ago
  > But I personally think the success criteria I've specified is not debatable I take it as you see "success" in terms of programming languages as something objective then, not subjective?

WaffleIronMaker 5y ago

I mean, that's an interesting point, but you have defined winning only on a macroscopic scale. On an individual level, winning takes on much more subjective criteria, and I think that's what people typically need information about when making language decisions. Quantity of users is interesting, but I'm certainly not writing an OS in Python because it ranks higher than C on TIOBE, and I'm not going to discount smaller languages that I can use effectively on the sole merit that other languages are more popular. Languages are tools that solve a problem, and it is possible for them to both be used by relatively few people and still successfully solve a problem. For example, though Elixir is not as popular as Go, Elixir might win for me because I think it has a better concurrency model. Elixir is not globally used more than Go, but nonetheless it is my winner, and the people who pour their time into the product have still done an admirable job.

iostream24 5y ago

I have another metric called “performance” that JavaScript is not the winner of. JavaScript is a fact of life in web browsers, less so on servers. I really would only ever use Nodejs as a build tool on my dev box, but perhaps you can advise me of other uses. I don’t consider a long running public facing service to be a good fit for node due to such a VMs memory behavior over time.