6 ms·

>an active incentive to keep it out of consumers' hands. They seem to act that way, but what would be the actual incentive? (As apposed to just bad business ac

>an active incentive to keep it out of consumers' hands. They seem to act that way, but what would be the actual incentive? (As apposed to just bad business acumen)

mertd 5y ago
They are either impossibly incompetent or there is something about the technology that makes mass availability in different form factors not viable and our laymen understanding doesn't see it.
- jve 5y ago
  Yeah I wonder if price point is justified or not. Accessible pricing may result in eink screens taking consumers, businesses, hobbyists and whatnot by storm. But meh...
- derefr 5y ago
  Conspiracy theory: it's because e-ink technology has military (stealth / penaid) applications. (See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=499TkWOl4PM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=499TkWOl4PM; then picture a "chameleon jet-fighter" that syncs its color to the surrounding sky; or better yet, a chameleon missile. Without losing range due to needing to power active panels.) I don't necessarily mean to imply that the military is restricting the tech for competitive reasons; but rather just that E Ink Corporation might be price-anchoring relative to what their biggest customer is willing to pay. (See also: why "holographic glitter" is so expensive, compared to other metallic glitters. Holo-glitter paint is an effective radar diffuser; and, more obviously, the glitter itself is literally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure) !)
  - h2odragon 5y ago
    Another conspiracy theory: the LCD cartel has been paying them not to compete. Given any actual difficulties yet to be worked out for mass production of eink (and there's always something), they may just be making more money by threatening to compete with LCD displays than they could by actually doing so.
  - xvector 5y ago
    > a "chameleon jet-fighter" that syncs its color to the surrounding sky; would be largely worthless as visual isn't really the primary way we detect and destroy aircraft anymore.
    - derefr 5y ago
      In combat, sure. Making yourself invisible to satellite imagery during long-range flyover missions, on the other hand...
  - ggm 5y ago
    Holo glitter works in the radar domain. So, its passive tech which has an effect. EInk has a refresh time. Which is a significant mismatch to the flight speed of devices which seek to mask themselves against changing background. More to the point, optical detection is the least worry in this space. by the time it's visible in motion, its already a problem. ' For on-the-ground, its easier to put it under a canopy. EInk does nothing for radar, or thermal imaging. So your proposed conspiracy is to defeat human eyes, which rarely if ever are the first-spotters. The circumstances where using radar breaches your own privacy are understood. I would expect an ML vision system could defeat this anyway. (and I say that as a bit of a long-term non-believer in AI) I love a good conspiracy, but alas, I think this isn't it. The grassy knoll is just, after all, a patch of grass, and not an EInk facsimile, in my personal opinion.
    - hattmall 5y ago
      Could be great for low altitude drones and helicopters though
    - derefr 5y ago
      Not from below. From above. IMINT countermeasure, to make countries with imaging satellites take longer to notice you flying silent over water into their airspace (presuming you've already got MASINT stealth covered, and are moving onto higher-hanging fruit.) Gives aircraft the same long-distance stealth advantage a sub has: they don't see you coming until you're there. (Admittedly, I was being a bit silly with the missile use-case.)
      - ggm 5y ago
        Being able to retint your visible spectrum view from 10,000ft and above would be useful, I agree. I occasionally see referrals in flow text to a Chinese claim they invented "holographic quantum" radar and can see all current stealth low echo aircraft and subs. I suspect it's bullshit but in war, if stealth was a purturbation, and deep water subs a more historical perturbation toward MAD and now, this is another perturbation much as drones have altered the symmetry for tank and mechanised ground warfare.. "shrug"
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- robinsoh 5y ago
  > They are either impossibly incompetent or there is something about the technology that makes mass availability in different form factors not viable and our laymen understanding doesn't see it. You are correct, it is the equivalent of me as a display engineer coming here and saying "Cray computers has an active incentive to keep it out of consumer's hands" or alleging "Microsoft is blocking progress in the operating system industry using their patent". If you examine my comment history, you'll see I've tried repeatedly before on HN to explain why the physics of electrophoresis is the dominant limitation in the industry but that is apparently harder to understand and harder to accept, whereas people saying things like "the company behind the tech has an active incentive to keep it out of consumers' hands." or "the technology is locked by a company that doesn't innovate nor mass produce their tech. " without citations or any evidence is accepted as the gospel truth. :-)
  - haroldp 5y ago
    Why does my 12 year old kindle-keyboard refresh so much faster and better than any eink hobby display that I can buy? Do you think there is any hope of this changing?
    - robinsoh 5y ago
      > Why does my 12 year old kindle-keyboard refresh so much faster and better than any eink hobby display that I can buy? Do you think there is any hope of this changing? I have no idea what you mean by "refresh so much faster and better" or what an "eink hobby display" is. To me, you can buy the same panel Kindle uses on the market and you can drive it with various different controllers and the "update latency" (electrophoretic panels don't refresh) will be different.
    - captainmuon 5y ago
      The panels are very similar. Amazon made their own driver board, and they put a lot of work into tuning it. The ones you can buy for hobbyists have very cheap driver boards that are merely "good enough". Why they can't be a dollar or two more expensive and have better components, or why they can't just release the firmware source so people can improve it, I have no idea. I would almost say they are intentionally limiting it, but I've seen the same behavior from single-board-computer vendors, for example. It's really short sighted.
maratc 5y ago
I would not assume any malicious intent. e-Ink is a wonderful solution looking for a problem. Anything with a mouse pointer can't use e-Ink because of slow refresh rates. Anything looking at a web page can't use e-Ink because of slow refresh rates. Anything playing video can't use e-Ink because of slow refresh rates. This leaves us with e-readers, but that market is very limited in size. Not everyone wants a dedicated book-reading device when a multipurpose device can, besides everything else, also read books. Even smaller markets are information kiosks and "smart" price tags in supermarkets.
- roeles 5y ago
  There's a whole range of applications where it makes sense. Since it is very well readable in full sunlight, e-ink is very suitable for low refresh aircraft displays. I suspect the same could apply for all kinds of HMIs which are used outdoors.
  - maratc 5y ago
    Aircraft displays need to work in full darkness too. e-Ink might make sense but its price, compared to some LCD screen, might not. Otherwise, I take from your comment that we're in agreement that "e-Ink is a solution looking for a problem".
    - roeles 5y ago
      My experience is from gliders, which are only operated in VFR conditions (not more than 30 minutes before sunrise and not more than 30 minutes after sundown). VFR is nothing glider-specific though, so I can see them being useful in other VFR-operated aircraft too. In my experience e-ink displays reduce eye strain and attract less attention. This results in more attention being drawn to the outside world, which in turn is a good thing for safety. I am not at all in agreement with your statement. In some contexts price is not a big issue and the qualities that e-ink brings are worth the money.
      - drooglyman 5y ago
n8cpdx 5y ago
You might be surprised at how many companies get comfortable servicing a commercial niche and just choose not to pursue consumer growth. Without pursuing it, the potential value is hypothetical and internally it can be hard to build a compelling case for mass marketization. There is a lot of effort required to scale up technologies to the point that it is affordable for consumers. In the software space I see it with solutions (think $500+/year/seat licensing) that could be broadly useful, but the company doesn’t want to make intuitive or bug free (enterprise software users will tolerate a lot of abuse). In the hardware space, there is a risk of building a million units of something that doesn’t sell (think Surface RT).
dredmorbius 5y ago
My thought: market segmentation, and/or the inability to do so meaningfully. The principle characteristics of e-ink displays are size, resolution, refresh rate, and colour gamut. (Even B&W displays have a range of greyscale gamuts.) Small displays are now reasonably cheap, with displays of ~6--8" available for $20--50. Larger displays, suitable for advertising, marketing, or other commercial/industrial applications are much more expensive, as noted here. Some of that is likely cost-driven, but another element is that if a larger supply were offered, the price would fall. Absent some way of bracketing specific applications, there's little to keep, say, advertising or commercial users from making do with cheaper consumer-grade displays. There's a somewhat similar rationale that was arrived at in the 19th century by French engineer / economist / polymath Jules Dupuit, in describing the rationale by which 3rd class rail carriages were so much poorly fitted than 2nd class --- if the 3rd class accommodations were merely sufficient then they would cannibalise 2nd class ticket sales. Instead, 3rd class was made intentionally bad. That's a dynamic which is replicated today in both transporation (e.g., airline coach class seating) and free-tier Internet and information services. I don't know that this is what's driving EInk's business strategy. But I have my suspicions.

>an active incentive to keep it out of consumers' hands. They seem to act that way, but what would be the actual incentive? (As apposed to just bad business acumen)

mertd 5y ago

They are either impossibly incompetent or there is something about the technology that makes mass availability in different form factors not viable and our laymen understanding doesn't see it.

jve 5y ago
Yeah I wonder if price point is justified or not. Accessible pricing may result in eink screens taking consumers, businesses, hobbyists and whatnot by storm. But meh...
derefr 5y ago
Conspiracy theory: it's because e-ink technology has military (stealth / penaid) applications. (See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=499TkWOl4PM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=499TkWOl4PM; then picture a "chameleon jet-fighter" that syncs its color to the surrounding sky; or better yet, a chameleon missile. Without losing range due to needing to power active panels.) I don't necessarily mean to imply that the military is restricting the tech for competitive reasons; but rather just that E Ink Corporation might be price-anchoring relative to what their biggest customer is willing to pay. (See also: why "holographic glitter" is so expensive, compared to other metallic glitters. Holo-glitter paint is an effective radar diffuser; and, more obviously, the glitter itself is literally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure) !)
- h2odragon 5y ago
  Another conspiracy theory: the LCD cartel has been paying them not to compete. Given any actual difficulties yet to be worked out for mass production of eink (and there's always something), they may just be making more money by threatening to compete with LCD displays than they could by actually doing so.
- xvector 5y ago
  > a "chameleon jet-fighter" that syncs its color to the surrounding sky; would be largely worthless as visual isn't really the primary way we detect and destroy aircraft anymore.
  - derefr 5y ago
    In combat, sure. Making yourself invisible to satellite imagery during long-range flyover missions, on the other hand...
- ggm 5y ago
  Holo glitter works in the radar domain. So, its passive tech which has an effect. EInk has a refresh time. Which is a significant mismatch to the flight speed of devices which seek to mask themselves against changing background. More to the point, optical detection is the least worry in this space. by the time it's visible in motion, its already a problem. ' For on-the-ground, its easier to put it under a canopy. EInk does nothing for radar, or thermal imaging. So your proposed conspiracy is to defeat human eyes, which rarely if ever are the first-spotters. The circumstances where using radar breaches your own privacy are understood. I would expect an ML vision system could defeat this anyway. (and I say that as a bit of a long-term non-believer in AI) I love a good conspiracy, but alas, I think this isn't it. The grassy knoll is just, after all, a patch of grass, and not an EInk facsimile, in my personal opinion.
  - hattmall 5y ago
    Could be great for low altitude drones and helicopters though
  - derefr 5y ago
    Not from below. From above. IMINT countermeasure, to make countries with imaging satellites take longer to notice you flying silent over water into their airspace (presuming you've already got MASINT stealth covered, and are moving onto higher-hanging fruit.) Gives aircraft the same long-distance stealth advantage a sub has: they don't see you coming until you're there. (Admittedly, I was being a bit silly with the missile use-case.)
    - ggm 5y ago
      Being able to retint your visible spectrum view from 10,000ft and above would be useful, I agree. I occasionally see referrals in flow text to a Chinese claim they invented "holographic quantum" radar and can see all current stealth low echo aircraft and subs. I suspect it's bullshit but in war, if stealth was a purturbation, and deep water subs a more historical perturbation toward MAD and now, this is another perturbation much as drones have altered the symmetry for tank and mechanised ground warfare.. "shrug"
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
robinsoh 5y ago
> They are either impossibly incompetent or there is something about the technology that makes mass availability in different form factors not viable and our laymen understanding doesn't see it. You are correct, it is the equivalent of me as a display engineer coming here and saying "Cray computers has an active incentive to keep it out of consumer's hands" or alleging "Microsoft is blocking progress in the operating system industry using their patent". If you examine my comment history, you'll see I've tried repeatedly before on HN to explain why the physics of electrophoresis is the dominant limitation in the industry but that is apparently harder to understand and harder to accept, whereas people saying things like "the company behind the tech has an active incentive to keep it out of consumers' hands." or "the technology is locked by a company that doesn't innovate nor mass produce their tech. " without citations or any evidence is accepted as the gospel truth. :-)
- haroldp 5y ago
  Why does my 12 year old kindle-keyboard refresh so much faster and better than any eink hobby display that I can buy? Do you think there is any hope of this changing?
  - robinsoh 5y ago
    > Why does my 12 year old kindle-keyboard refresh so much faster and better than any eink hobby display that I can buy? Do you think there is any hope of this changing? I have no idea what you mean by "refresh so much faster and better" or what an "eink hobby display" is. To me, you can buy the same panel Kindle uses on the market and you can drive it with various different controllers and the "update latency" (electrophoretic panels don't refresh) will be different.
  - captainmuon 5y ago
    The panels are very similar. Amazon made their own driver board, and they put a lot of work into tuning it. The ones you can buy for hobbyists have very cheap driver boards that are merely "good enough". Why they can't be a dollar or two more expensive and have better components, or why they can't just release the firmware source so people can improve it, I have no idea. I would almost say they are intentionally limiting it, but I've seen the same behavior from single-board-computer vendors, for example. It's really short sighted.

maratc 5y ago

I would not assume any malicious intent. e-Ink is a wonderful solution looking for a problem. Anything with a mouse pointer can't use e-Ink because of slow refresh rates. Anything looking at a web page can't use e-Ink because of slow refresh rates. Anything playing video can't use e-Ink because of slow refresh rates. This leaves us with e-readers, but that market is very limited in size. Not everyone wants a dedicated book-reading device when a multipurpose device can, besides everything else, also read books. Even smaller markets are information kiosks and "smart" price tags in supermarkets.

roeles 5y ago
There's a whole range of applications where it makes sense. Since it is very well readable in full sunlight, e-ink is very suitable for low refresh aircraft displays. I suspect the same could apply for all kinds of HMIs which are used outdoors.
- maratc 5y ago
  Aircraft displays need to work in full darkness too. e-Ink might make sense but its price, compared to some LCD screen, might not. Otherwise, I take from your comment that we're in agreement that "e-Ink is a solution looking for a problem".
  - roeles 5y ago
    My experience is from gliders, which are only operated in VFR conditions (not more than 30 minutes before sunrise and not more than 30 minutes after sundown). VFR is nothing glider-specific though, so I can see them being useful in other VFR-operated aircraft too. In my experience e-ink displays reduce eye strain and attract less attention. This results in more attention being drawn to the outside world, which in turn is a good thing for safety. I am not at all in agreement with your statement. In some contexts price is not a big issue and the qualities that e-ink brings are worth the money.
    - drooglyman 5y ago

n8cpdx 5y ago

You might be surprised at how many companies get comfortable servicing a commercial niche and just choose not to pursue consumer growth. Without pursuing it, the potential value is hypothetical and internally it can be hard to build a compelling case for mass marketization. There is a lot of effort required to scale up technologies to the point that it is affordable for consumers. In the software space I see it with solutions (think $500+/year/seat licensing) that could be broadly useful, but the company doesn’t want to make intuitive or bug free (enterprise software users will tolerate a lot of abuse). In the hardware space, there is a risk of building a million units of something that doesn’t sell (think Surface RT).

dredmorbius 5y ago

My thought: market segmentation, and/or the inability to do so meaningfully. The principle characteristics of e-ink displays are size, resolution, refresh rate, and colour gamut. (Even B&W displays have a range of greyscale gamuts.) Small displays are now reasonably cheap, with displays of ~6--8" available for $20--50. Larger displays, suitable for advertising, marketing, or other commercial/industrial applications are much more expensive, as noted here. Some of that is likely cost-driven, but another element is that if a larger supply were offered, the price would fall. Absent some way of bracketing specific applications, there's little to keep, say, advertising or commercial users from making do with cheaper consumer-grade displays. There's a somewhat similar rationale that was arrived at in the 19th century by French engineer / economist / polymath Jules Dupuit, in describing the rationale by which 3rd class rail carriages were so much poorly fitted than 2nd class --- if the 3rd class accommodations were merely sufficient then they would cannibalise 2nd class ticket sales. Instead, 3rd class was made intentionally bad. That's a dynamic which is replicated today in both transporation (e.g., airline coach class seating) and free-tier Internet and information services. I don't know that this is what's driving EInk's business strategy. But I have my suspicions.