11 ms·

> Even if I knew the exact position of all atoms in a cup of water, the temperature of that water does not change due to that knowledge. If you knew the exact

by kgwgk 5y ago

> Even if I knew the exact position of all atoms in a cup of water, the temperature of that water does not change due to that knowledge. If you knew the exact position of all atoms in a cup of water you wouldn't assign any temperature to it. Not a thermodynamic temperature at least.

deltaonefour 5y ago
The number of microstates does not change, even if you KNOW the the cup of water is in a specific microstate. The boltzman equation is based on total accessible microstates.
- kgwgk 5y ago
  "accessible" means something only given a set of constraints. Like the temperature, if you keep the temperature of the water fixed. And the number of molecules if instead of a cup you have a close container to prevent it from evaporating. Then what you have is water at some temperature that you control. And you could have the water at a different temperature with exactly the same microstate. Or imagine gas at some fixed temperature within a cylinder with one movable wall. If you knew the location of every molecule of the gas it wouldn't make sense to talk about its pressure - you could compress it (reducing the number of accessible microstates) without doing any work. Edit: In summary, thermodynamics loses its meaning if you know the microstate and can act on that knowledge.
  - deltaonefour 5y ago
    >it wouldn't make sense to talk about its pressure - If I have a pressure gauge that reads the same thing regardless of my knowledge how is pressure meaningless? The tool that reads pressure gives me an accurate pressure number regardless of what I know or don't know. This number is correct. Your argument is basically saying that the pressure gauge becomes wrong once you have more knowledge of the system. No it doesn't. The pressure gauge is still giving you a number defined as "pressure." The gas in that cylinder is at a specific microstate within the macrostate defined as pressure.
    - kgwgk 5y ago
      > The pressure gauge is still giving you a number defined as "pressure." As long as you define “pressure” as “the reading of the manometer” and not as “the variable that together with temperature specifies the state of the gas and measures the quantity of energy required to compress it further”. Thermodynamics is based on state variables giving a complete description of the system. Statistical mechanics is based on looking at the ensemble of microscopic descriptions possible given what is known about the system and their probabilities. If all you know is a handful of thermodynamic variables that ensemble is huge. If you know already the microscopic description of the physical system your ensemble has one single possible configuration in it. As in jbay808’s xkcd example, if you have a random number generator and you know the sequence of numbers that will be generated, do you have a random number generator? The random number generator is still giving you a number defined as “random”, right? I guess that it’s still random if you “forget” that you know it in advance and that the macrostate is still meaningful as a complete description of the physical system if you “forget” that you have a perfect knowledge of its state. Edit: the GPS receiver in my phone is giving me some coordinates defined as “position” that happen to be in the middle of the road. However, I know precisely where I am. Don’t you think that the meaning of that “position” is somehow affected by this additional information?
      - deltaonefour 5y ago
        >Edit: the GPS receiver in my phone is giving me some coordinates defined as “position” that happen to be in the middle of the road. However, I know precisely where I am. Don’t you think that the meaning of that “position” is somehow affected by this additional information? No it is not affected by it. The meaning of position is never changed. Your knowledge of your position can change, but your actual position exists regardless of your knowledge or inaccuracies of your tools. >As in jbay808’s xkcd example, if you have a random number generator and you know the sequence of numbers that will be generated, do you have a random number generator? The random number generator is still giving you a number defined as “random”, right? Random number generators are a rabbit hole. There's not even a proper mathematical definition for it. We're not sure what a random number is... we just have an intuition for it. Case in point, the xkcd article could not define it mathematically. This is the reason why the joke exists, because we're not even truly sure what it is or if random numbers are a thing. We have intuition for what a random number is but this is likely some kind of illusion similar to the many optical illusions produced by our visual cortex. If formalization of our intuitions are not possible then there is likelihood that the intuition is not even real. >Statistical mechanics is based on looking at the ensemble of microscopic descriptions possible given what is known about the system and their probabilities. ok take a look at this: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2916887/shannon-entropy-of-a-fair-dice https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2916887/shannon-ent... They're talking about deriving the entropy formula for fair dice. But they talk about it as if we don't have knowledge about physics, momentum and projectile motion. We have the power to simulate the dice in a computer simulation and know the EXACT outcome of the dice. The dice is a cube and easily modeled with mathematics. So then why does the above discussion even exist? What is the point of fantasizing about dice as if we have no knowledge of how to mechanically calculate the outcome? The point is they chose a specific set of macrostates that have uniform distribution across all the outcomes. It is a choice that is independent of knowledge.
- jbay808 5y ago
  If the cup of water is in a specific microstate at time t=0, and evolves over time according to deterministic equations of motion, how will it "access" other microstates that aren't along that specific trajectory in phase-space?
  - deltaonefour 5y ago
    It can't. But you're not typically defining ONLY microstates along that trajectory as accessible. You are defining all accessible configurations according to your defined macrostate. Knowledge of future microstates does not change what was already defined as a macrostate. The definition and the rules you used to construct a macrostate are independent to knowledge of the system. If you gain knowledge of the system and you would like to change your macrostate, then be my guest. You can certainly do that, but "entropy" as we know it does not actually change with more knowledge unless you change the parameters according to your gained knowledge. Think of it this way. The thermometer ALWAYS reads the same thing EVEN if you have 100% knowledge of the current microstate. You can build a new thermometer using some other mechanism to get a different reading and to take advantage of your new found knowledge... but you'd be changing the definition of your macrostate.

by kgwgk 5y ago

deltaonefour 5y ago

The number of microstates does not change, even if you KNOW the the cup of water is in a specific microstate. The boltzman equation is based on total accessible microstates.

kgwgk 5y ago
"accessible" means something only given a set of constraints. Like the temperature, if you keep the temperature of the water fixed. And the number of molecules if instead of a cup you have a close container to prevent it from evaporating. Then what you have is water at some temperature that you control. And you could have the water at a different temperature with exactly the same microstate. Or imagine gas at some fixed temperature within a cylinder with one movable wall. If you knew the location of every molecule of the gas it wouldn't make sense to talk about its pressure - you could compress it (reducing the number of accessible microstates) without doing any work. Edit: In summary, thermodynamics loses its meaning if you know the microstate and can act on that knowledge.
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  >it wouldn't make sense to talk about its pressure - If I have a pressure gauge that reads the same thing regardless of my knowledge how is pressure meaningless? The tool that reads pressure gives me an accurate pressure number regardless of what I know or don't know. This number is correct. Your argument is basically saying that the pressure gauge becomes wrong once you have more knowledge of the system. No it doesn't. The pressure gauge is still giving you a number defined as "pressure." The gas in that cylinder is at a specific microstate within the macrostate defined as pressure.
  - kgwgk 5y ago
    > The pressure gauge is still giving you a number defined as "pressure." As long as you define “pressure” as “the reading of the manometer” and not as “the variable that together with temperature specifies the state of the gas and measures the quantity of energy required to compress it further”. Thermodynamics is based on state variables giving a complete description of the system. Statistical mechanics is based on looking at the ensemble of microscopic descriptions possible given what is known about the system and their probabilities. If all you know is a handful of thermodynamic variables that ensemble is huge. If you know already the microscopic description of the physical system your ensemble has one single possible configuration in it. As in jbay808’s xkcd example, if you have a random number generator and you know the sequence of numbers that will be generated, do you have a random number generator? The random number generator is still giving you a number defined as “random”, right? I guess that it’s still random if you “forget” that you know it in advance and that the macrostate is still meaningful as a complete description of the physical system if you “forget” that you have a perfect knowledge of its state. Edit: the GPS receiver in my phone is giving me some coordinates defined as “position” that happen to be in the middle of the road. However, I know precisely where I am. Don’t you think that the meaning of that “position” is somehow affected by this additional information?
    - deltaonefour 5y ago
      >Edit: the GPS receiver in my phone is giving me some coordinates defined as “position” that happen to be in the middle of the road. However, I know precisely where I am. Don’t you think that the meaning of that “position” is somehow affected by this additional information? No it is not affected by it. The meaning of position is never changed. Your knowledge of your position can change, but your actual position exists regardless of your knowledge or inaccuracies of your tools. >As in jbay808’s xkcd example, if you have a random number generator and you know the sequence of numbers that will be generated, do you have a random number generator? The random number generator is still giving you a number defined as “random”, right? Random number generators are a rabbit hole. There's not even a proper mathematical definition for it. We're not sure what a random number is... we just have an intuition for it. Case in point, the xkcd article could not define it mathematically. This is the reason why the joke exists, because we're not even truly sure what it is or if random numbers are a thing. We have intuition for what a random number is but this is likely some kind of illusion similar to the many optical illusions produced by our visual cortex. If formalization of our intuitions are not possible then there is likelihood that the intuition is not even real. >Statistical mechanics is based on looking at the ensemble of microscopic descriptions possible given what is known about the system and their probabilities. ok take a look at this: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2916887/shannon-entropy-of-a-fair-dice https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2916887/shannon-ent... They're talking about deriving the entropy formula for fair dice. But they talk about it as if we don't have knowledge about physics, momentum and projectile motion. We have the power to simulate the dice in a computer simulation and know the EXACT outcome of the dice. The dice is a cube and easily modeled with mathematics. So then why does the above discussion even exist? What is the point of fantasizing about dice as if we have no knowledge of how to mechanically calculate the outcome? The point is they chose a specific set of macrostates that have uniform distribution across all the outcomes. It is a choice that is independent of knowledge.
jbay808 5y ago
If the cup of water is in a specific microstate at time t=0, and evolves over time according to deterministic equations of motion, how will it "access" other microstates that aren't along that specific trajectory in phase-space?
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  It can't. But you're not typically defining ONLY microstates along that trajectory as accessible. You are defining all accessible configurations according to your defined macrostate. Knowledge of future microstates does not change what was already defined as a macrostate. The definition and the rules you used to construct a macrostate are independent to knowledge of the system. If you gain knowledge of the system and you would like to change your macrostate, then be my guest. You can certainly do that, but "entropy" as we know it does not actually change with more knowledge unless you change the parameters according to your gained knowledge. Think of it this way. The thermometer ALWAYS reads the same thing EVEN if you have 100% knowledge of the current microstate. You can build a new thermometer using some other mechanism to get a different reading and to take advantage of your new found knowledge... but you'd be changing the definition of your macrostate.