6 ms·

The volumes are different because the technology is locked by a company that doesn't innovate nor mass produce their tech. There are tons of applications of l

by Kuinox 5y ago

The volumes are different because the technology is locked by a company that doesn't innovate nor mass produce their tech. There are tons of applications of low power screen. It could even outweighs the OLED in term of volume. Some companies in China, that ignore the patents, manage to produce 20 fps 23" eink screen. Add color to it and it's the perfect screen for a lot of computer work.

fortran77 5y ago
This is an old trope on Hacker News, as predictable as "have you tried re-writing it in Rust." But there's little evidence it's true.
- jokowueu 5y ago
  I don't think he is saying patents are bad. But the company it's self is .
  - robinsoh 5y ago
    > But the company it's self is . and it would be lovely if he could share what leads him to believe that.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - Kuinox 5y ago
      Did I hurt you personally for you to be so toxic with me ? Chill.
      - ThrowawayR2 5y ago
        There has been no evidence presented whatsoever for the assertion that e-Ink has been abusing their IP other than one post from a throwaway account on HN a couple of years ago. No corroborating news articles about lawsuits, which the post alleged; no filings about acquisitions, which the post alleged; nothing. But somehow HN posters have adopted that as the truth?
        jokowueu 5y ago
        No one here has said they were abusing their IP . The common theme on HN and other sites is that e-ink are pricing their hardware at such a high level that it makes anything other than small tablets unaffordable . We will have to just wait until the patent runs out in order to see great advancements in this tech like what we have seen from the aftermath of the expiration of certain 3D printer patents
        robinsoh 5y ago
        > We will have to just wait until the patent runs out I'm genuinely curious. Which patent is that?
        jokowueu 5y ago
        Not sure which but they do have quite a few. https://patents.justia.com/search?q=+E+Ink+Corporation https://patents.justia.com/search?q=+E+Ink+Corporation
        robinsoh 5y ago
        > Not sure which but they do have quite a few. That's equivalent to me making a claim like "Microsoft is blocking progress in operating systems" and then said here's the evidence: https://patents.justia.com/search?q=+Microsoft+Corporation https://patents.justia.com/search?q=+Microsoft+Corporation
        jokowueu 5y ago
        I'm not gonna do your homework . Rude
      - robinsoh 5y ago
        > Did I hurt you personally for you to be so toxic with me ? Chill. I'm sorry you feel that way, however challenging your incredible claims and asking that you provide some evidence before we believe you is not the same "be so toxic with me".
        Kuinox 5y ago
        You are thinking I feel this way because you ask for a source. It's not. It's the condescending tone you display in every of your response, exactly like this one.
        robinsoh 5y ago
        > It's the condescending tone you display in every of your response, exactly like this one. It is unfortunate that you continue to persist in not providing data but instead redirecting the energy of the conversation into allegations of condescenion which I can't defend. All I said was. I'm sorry you feel that way, however challenging your incredible claims and asking that you provide some evidence before we believe you is not the same "be so toxic with me".
        Kuinox 5y ago
        To have a constructive discussion you must have mutual respect, and I lost any respect to you when you showed you had none to me.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        robinsoh 5y ago
        I can't address your feelings since that's something you're generating internally. What is clear to me is you're not willing (or more likely in my opinion, able) to provide any data or evidence for your claim.
pjerem 5y ago
> Some companies in China, that ignore the patents, manage to produce 20 fps 23" eink screen. I'm genuinely interested, are you talking about Onyxboox Mira or Dasung ? Because i thought that they manufactured official e-ink patented products
- Kuinox 5y ago
  I was talking about Dasung. Dasung respect the patents? My bad then, I've read somewhere they were not.
  - AlanYx 5y ago
    Dasung panels are properly licensed from eInk Corp. They (Dasung) actually have a couple patents of their own on their e-ink driver board tech, which drives the panels. If you're searching a patent database, search for "Beijing Dasung".
robinsoh 5y ago
> The volumes are different because the technology is locked by a company that doesn't innovate nor mass produce their tech. Citation needed. I'd love to see some evidence backing up your incredibly confident claim. > Some companies in China, that ignore the patents, manage to produce 20 fps 23" eink screen. Add color to it and it's the perfect screen for a lot of computer work. I've never heard of that. Please share some evidence for this please. 20 fps electrophoresis? In my opinion, that's physically impossible unless the screen is 0.1mm thick. How did they escape Q = vA ?
- Kuinox 5y ago
  https://youtu.be/RRvlJ2HjH30?t=250 https://youtu.be/RRvlJ2HjH30?t=250
  - robinsoh 5y ago
    Yes, that's a Dasung Paperlite. That's a regular E-Ink screen from the same manufacturer, not as you wrote "Some companies in China, that ignore the patents, manage to produce 20 fps 23" eink screen. ". That's not 20 fps. That's A2 mode which is a 1 bit mode and is a non-stable state so it will decay. I'd recommend you read the user manual about how that works.
    - mdp2021 5y ago
      A2 should be 8fps, 125ms. How does the 'Q = vA' law you mention apply, to reason on an example, to the case of A2, as a limiter to the rate? > A2 mode which is a 1 bit mode and is a non-stable state so it will decay It makes little sense to use A2 on a long-lasting render - nonetheless, I suppose the decay time will be relatively long (I have never notice an A2 dot change state...).
- greysonp 5y ago
  I assume they're referring to Onyx and Dasung[1]. Not sure if it's actually 20fps (videos I've found look to be more in the low teens by my eye), and I believe they're making a lot of trade-offs around ghosting and stuff to achieve those frame rates. Also no idea what their licensing situation is. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRvlJ2HjH30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRvlJ2HjH30
EGreg 5y ago
Which companies in China? Can they produce large format screens, like a few feet on each side? Or do we have to buy small ones and tile them? We probably can’t tile them as they need electronics around each border. I want to do e-paintings. So if you tell me which Chinese companies, ie their websites, I would try to reach out !
varenc 5y ago
Awhile back the Founder of Visionect refuted this idea that patents are holding things back on hacker news: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067824 My personal take: E-Ink screens have too many drawbacks for 99% of consumers to be at all interested in them.
- jessriedel 5y ago
  That comment doesn't really have any evidence beyond the fact that it's the opinion of the founder of Visionect, it just makes assertions, so I wouldn't say "refuted". Color e-ink has a killer app: Changeable photo display in homes. This is much harder to achieve with alternative technologies (any display emitting light is an immediate no-go for just hanging on your wall). In contrast, e-readers have a significantly smaller advantage over the alternative of just reading on your phone or tablet, yet that seems to have been enough of a market for them to become cheap. And unlike e-readers, where you only really need one per person, there is hardly any limit to the number of displays people would put in their home if they do not emit light, have nice UI, and are cheap.
  - eli 5y ago
    "Why aren't prices of large eink panels cheaper?" is a question that can only be answered with opinions until someone actually does it. Seems like the opinion of someone actually in the business of selling large eink panels should count for a lot more than speculation by an outsider. Visionect sells some eInk signs for showing the status of meeting and conference rooms. I thought that was a clever application -- saves companies from having to run wires and mount a bunch of hardware. Color photo displays could be cool, but I suspect it'd be hard to compete with the incredibly cheap Google Home and Alexa devices with screens.
    - kortilla 5y ago
      > Seems like the opinion of someone actually in the business of selling large eink panels should count for a lot more than speculation by an outsider. Not really. That particular person’s entire business depends on eink being a high margin business product.

by Kuinox 5y ago

fortran77 5y ago

This is an old trope on Hacker News, as predictable as "have you tried re-writing it in Rust." But there's little evidence it's true.

jokowueu 5y ago
I don't think he is saying patents are bad. But the company it's self is .
- robinsoh 5y ago
  > But the company it's self is . and it would be lovely if he could share what leads him to believe that.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Kuinox 5y ago
    Did I hurt you personally for you to be so toxic with me ? Chill.
    - ThrowawayR2 5y ago
      There has been no evidence presented whatsoever for the assertion that e-Ink has been abusing their IP other than one post from a throwaway account on HN a couple of years ago. No corroborating news articles about lawsuits, which the post alleged; no filings about acquisitions, which the post alleged; nothing. But somehow HN posters have adopted that as the truth?
      - jokowueu 5y ago
        No one here has said they were abusing their IP . The common theme on HN and other sites is that e-ink are pricing their hardware at such a high level that it makes anything other than small tablets unaffordable . We will have to just wait until the patent runs out in order to see great advancements in this tech like what we have seen from the aftermath of the expiration of certain 3D printer patents
        robinsoh 5y ago
        > We will have to just wait until the patent runs out I'm genuinely curious. Which patent is that?
        jokowueu 5y ago
        Not sure which but they do have quite a few. https://patents.justia.com/search?q=+E+Ink+Corporation https://patents.justia.com/search?q=+E+Ink+Corporation
        robinsoh 5y ago
        > Not sure which but they do have quite a few. That's equivalent to me making a claim like "Microsoft is blocking progress in operating systems" and then said here's the evidence: https://patents.justia.com/search?q=+Microsoft+Corporation https://patents.justia.com/search?q=+Microsoft+Corporation
        jokowueu 5y ago
        I'm not gonna do your homework . Rude
    - robinsoh 5y ago
      > Did I hurt you personally for you to be so toxic with me ? Chill. I'm sorry you feel that way, however challenging your incredible claims and asking that you provide some evidence before we believe you is not the same "be so toxic with me".
      - Kuinox 5y ago
        You are thinking I feel this way because you ask for a source. It's not. It's the condescending tone you display in every of your response, exactly like this one.
        robinsoh 5y ago
        > It's the condescending tone you display in every of your response, exactly like this one. It is unfortunate that you continue to persist in not providing data but instead redirecting the energy of the conversation into allegations of condescenion which I can't defend. All I said was. I'm sorry you feel that way, however challenging your incredible claims and asking that you provide some evidence before we believe you is not the same "be so toxic with me".
        Kuinox 5y ago
        To have a constructive discussion you must have mutual respect, and I lost any respect to you when you showed you had none to me.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        robinsoh 5y ago
        I can't address your feelings since that's something you're generating internally. What is clear to me is you're not willing (or more likely in my opinion, able) to provide any data or evidence for your claim.

pjerem 5y ago

> Some companies in China, that ignore the patents, manage to produce 20 fps 23" eink screen. I'm genuinely interested, are you talking about Onyxboox Mira or Dasung ? Because i thought that they manufactured official e-ink patented products

Kuinox 5y ago
I was talking about Dasung. Dasung respect the patents? My bad then, I've read somewhere they were not.
- AlanYx 5y ago
  Dasung panels are properly licensed from eInk Corp. They (Dasung) actually have a couple patents of their own on their e-ink driver board tech, which drives the panels. If you're searching a patent database, search for "Beijing Dasung".

robinsoh 5y ago

> The volumes are different because the technology is locked by a company that doesn't innovate nor mass produce their tech. Citation needed. I'd love to see some evidence backing up your incredibly confident claim. > Some companies in China, that ignore the patents, manage to produce 20 fps 23" eink screen. Add color to it and it's the perfect screen for a lot of computer work. I've never heard of that. Please share some evidence for this please. 20 fps electrophoresis? In my opinion, that's physically impossible unless the screen is 0.1mm thick. How did they escape Q = vA ?

Kuinox 5y ago
https://youtu.be/RRvlJ2HjH30?t=250 https://youtu.be/RRvlJ2HjH30?t=250
- robinsoh 5y ago
  Yes, that's a Dasung Paperlite. That's a regular E-Ink screen from the same manufacturer, not as you wrote "Some companies in China, that ignore the patents, manage to produce 20 fps 23" eink screen. ". That's not 20 fps. That's A2 mode which is a 1 bit mode and is a non-stable state so it will decay. I'd recommend you read the user manual about how that works.
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    A2 should be 8fps, 125ms. How does the 'Q = vA' law you mention apply, to reason on an example, to the case of A2, as a limiter to the rate? > A2 mode which is a 1 bit mode and is a non-stable state so it will decay It makes little sense to use A2 on a long-lasting render - nonetheless, I suppose the decay time will be relatively long (I have never notice an A2 dot change state...).
greysonp 5y ago
I assume they're referring to Onyx and Dasung[1]. Not sure if it's actually 20fps (videos I've found look to be more in the low teens by my eye), and I believe they're making a lot of trade-offs around ghosting and stuff to achieve those frame rates. Also no idea what their licensing situation is. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRvlJ2HjH30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRvlJ2HjH30

EGreg 5y ago

Which companies in China? Can they produce large format screens, like a few feet on each side? Or do we have to buy small ones and tile them? We probably can’t tile them as they need electronics around each border. I want to do e-paintings. So if you tell me which Chinese companies, ie their websites, I would try to reach out !

varenc 5y ago

Awhile back the Founder of Visionect refuted this idea that patents are holding things back on hacker news: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067824 My personal take: E-Ink screens have too many drawbacks for 99% of consumers to be at all interested in them.

jessriedel 5y ago
That comment doesn't really have any evidence beyond the fact that it's the opinion of the founder of Visionect, it just makes assertions, so I wouldn't say "refuted". Color e-ink has a killer app: Changeable photo display in homes. This is much harder to achieve with alternative technologies (any display emitting light is an immediate no-go for just hanging on your wall). In contrast, e-readers have a significantly smaller advantage over the alternative of just reading on your phone or tablet, yet that seems to have been enough of a market for them to become cheap. And unlike e-readers, where you only really need one per person, there is hardly any limit to the number of displays people would put in their home if they do not emit light, have nice UI, and are cheap.
- eli 5y ago
  "Why aren't prices of large eink panels cheaper?" is a question that can only be answered with opinions until someone actually does it. Seems like the opinion of someone actually in the business of selling large eink panels should count for a lot more than speculation by an outsider. Visionect sells some eInk signs for showing the status of meeting and conference rooms. I thought that was a clever application -- saves companies from having to run wires and mount a bunch of hardware. Color photo displays could be cool, but I suspect it'd be hard to compete with the incredibly cheap Google Home and Alexa devices with screens.
  - kortilla 5y ago
    > Seems like the opinion of someone actually in the business of selling large eink panels should count for a lot more than speculation by an outsider. Not really. That particular person’s entire business depends on eink being a high margin business product.