4 ms·

I'd go one step further: the few legal purchases done with crypto currencies are mostly done by people unaware they're paying that price

by y4mi 4y ago

jychang 4y ago
Purchases, perhaps. Money transfer, definitely not. Bitcoin is a pretty cheap way to transfer money across international borders. A person probably wouldn't use bitcoin at the grocery store to buy milk, but it works better for sending grandma (located in a third world country) a bunch of money.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  Bitcoin is still more expensive than the banking system among first-world countries. How much can it be worth to send money to third-world countries of no banks are willing to set up there?
  - Grustaf 4y ago
    You could always use the crypto currency as the store of value there, just as people did with MPesa. You don't necessarily ever have to convert it to a local currency.
    - dmurray 4y ago
      MPesa doesn't store your money in some kind of private currency with a fluctuating value. If you're thinking of it as storing "minutes" as some American cellphone providers would, that's not right. You deposit and withdraw Kenyan Shillings, or your local equivalent, just as if it were a shilling-denominated bank account.
      - Grustaf 4y ago
        Yes, and you could make this hypothetical Kenyan cryptocurrency work the same way. One KCoin is one shilling, redeemable for minutes.
  - anonymoushn 4y ago
    where are you getting these $1 international wire transfers? Sign me up!
    - Grustaf 4y ago
      SEPA transfers cost €0, which (still) is less than $1.
      - anonymoushn 4y ago
        Ok, let me send dollars from the US to Japan via SEPA real quick.
        Grustaf 4y ago
        You asked “where”, and the answer is “in the SEPA countries”, which at least includes most of Europe.
        anonymoushn 4y ago
        Then I apologize for my imprecision! I meant "what financial institution will provide me and my counterparty this service for the currency we currently use in our current countries of residence" rather than "what pair of countries can me and my counterparty relocate to to obtain this service in at least one currency."
  - kybernetikos 4y ago
    Bitcoin BTC is currently more expensive than the banking system in first world countries because of the specific technical choices they have made. When I first used bitcoin it was free to the user (i.e. it was paid for by issuance). Other cryptocurrency systems that have made different technical choices are much cheaper these days - bitcoin BTC is a bit of an outlier in that regard. I personally have been experimenting with USDC on Argent wallet (a zksync L2 on ethereum). It's easy to use, quick and the transaction fees are around 20c at the moment (and likely to reduce further), and I'm sending a stable coin that tracks dollar.
buran77 4y ago
I think you hit the nail on the head. Most people who genuinely want to use cryptocurrencies as a replacement for classic ones in legal day to day transactions don't realize the drawbacks. There's an implicit assumption that by being a "currency" crypto gives the same benefits as a classic one, plus the digital aspect and other advantages. But I like to think this is like buying medicine from a street dealer. Maybe it's faster or more convenient, maybe you get the same quality. But those "maybes" are clearer for people when buying medication from a back alley. It's not at all visible to people using crypto as a replacement for their classic currency. Every time there's an exchange hack, a massive fraud, a price crash, etc. more people start feeling the drawbacks and push for the kind of regulation, oversight, supervision that today are antithetical with cryptocurrencies and its associated parties.
lrvick 4y ago
I am one of those people that uses cash and bitcoin for privacy and reliability and for 100% legal use cases. I have experienced bank accounts of mine and those I know be frozen, emptied without warning due to identity theft, a false criminal accusation, forgotten debts, etc. I also know very well that banks have data sharing relationships with Visa, etc, that form a full map of where and when you spend money to aid data brokers in selling changes in your behavior to advertisers. Do you really want metadata on every purchase you make at a sex shop or a pharmacy stored in databases and sold to the highest bidder? Cash has limits though. It is impractical and unsafe to put cash in the mail when paying friends back for dinner after we all go our separate ways or if I am buying something online I wish to be anonymous like a VPN subscription. In those cases Bitcoin solves a problem and I have legitimately used it on a regular basis for many years. I never use venmo etc and friends and I regularly settle debts with Bitcoin. I would prefer not to have to carry around cash all the time so when possible to use Bitcoin in retail, I do. I have used bitcoin to buy drinks at bars in Germany, electronics at big box stores in Japan, meals at various restaurants, and coffee hundreds of times. I can also get cash from Bitcoin ATMs worldwide without having to deal with a bank denying me my own money because I am in an unexpected country. Bitcoin, when purchased with cash, gives me all the privacy of cash with all the portability of a visa card.
- newswasboring 4y ago
  How are you purchasing bitcoin with cash? I know it happens but I don't know how it's happening. Is it safe?
  - lrvick 4y ago
    Bitcoin ATMs, and repayment from friends when I pay for things in cash. There are also p2p exchanges like LocalCoinSwap where you can meet people in person in public places to buy or sell an amount of BTC you are comfortable carrying. Some let you use escrow where you deposit cash to a bank account then you are sent BTC on receipt. None of these methods can be stopped no matter how much regulators demand KYC from the Coinbases of the world. Humans can always trade directly. Similarly I am also paid directly in Bitcoin by some of my clients I do consulting for so neither side needs to fuss with bank transfers. Lastly I can always buy on an exchanges, convert to Monero, then back to Bitcoin to de-associate the Bitcoin to me.

I'd go one step further: the few legal purchases done with crypto currencies are mostly done by people unaware they're paying that price

by y4mi 4y ago

I'd go one step further: the few legal purchases done with crypto currencies are mostly done by people unaware they're paying that price

jychang 4y ago

Purchases, perhaps. Money transfer, definitely not. Bitcoin is a pretty cheap way to transfer money across international borders. A person probably wouldn't use bitcoin at the grocery store to buy milk, but it works better for sending grandma (located in a third world country) a bunch of money.

HWR_14 4y ago
Bitcoin is still more expensive than the banking system among first-world countries. How much can it be worth to send money to third-world countries of no banks are willing to set up there?
- Grustaf 4y ago
  You could always use the crypto currency as the store of value there, just as people did with MPesa. You don't necessarily ever have to convert it to a local currency.
  - dmurray 4y ago
    MPesa doesn't store your money in some kind of private currency with a fluctuating value. If you're thinking of it as storing "minutes" as some American cellphone providers would, that's not right. You deposit and withdraw Kenyan Shillings, or your local equivalent, just as if it were a shilling-denominated bank account.
    - Grustaf 4y ago
      Yes, and you could make this hypothetical Kenyan cryptocurrency work the same way. One KCoin is one shilling, redeemable for minutes.
- anonymoushn 4y ago
  where are you getting these $1 international wire transfers? Sign me up!
  - Grustaf 4y ago
    SEPA transfers cost €0, which (still) is less than $1.
    - anonymoushn 4y ago
      Ok, let me send dollars from the US to Japan via SEPA real quick.
      - Grustaf 4y ago
        You asked “where”, and the answer is “in the SEPA countries”, which at least includes most of Europe.
        anonymoushn 4y ago
        Then I apologize for my imprecision! I meant "what financial institution will provide me and my counterparty this service for the currency we currently use in our current countries of residence" rather than "what pair of countries can me and my counterparty relocate to to obtain this service in at least one currency."
- kybernetikos 4y ago
  Bitcoin BTC is currently more expensive than the banking system in first world countries because of the specific technical choices they have made. When I first used bitcoin it was free to the user (i.e. it was paid for by issuance). Other cryptocurrency systems that have made different technical choices are much cheaper these days - bitcoin BTC is a bit of an outlier in that regard. I personally have been experimenting with USDC on Argent wallet (a zksync L2 on ethereum). It's easy to use, quick and the transaction fees are around 20c at the moment (and likely to reduce further), and I'm sending a stable coin that tracks dollar.

buran77 4y ago

I think you hit the nail on the head. Most people who genuinely want to use cryptocurrencies as a replacement for classic ones in legal day to day transactions don't realize the drawbacks. There's an implicit assumption that by being a "currency" crypto gives the same benefits as a classic one, plus the digital aspect and other advantages. But I like to think this is like buying medicine from a street dealer. Maybe it's faster or more convenient, maybe you get the same quality. But those "maybes" are clearer for people when buying medication from a back alley. It's not at all visible to people using crypto as a replacement for their classic currency. Every time there's an exchange hack, a massive fraud, a price crash, etc. more people start feeling the drawbacks and push for the kind of regulation, oversight, supervision that today are antithetical with cryptocurrencies and its associated parties.

lrvick 4y ago

I am one of those people that uses cash and bitcoin for privacy and reliability and for 100% legal use cases. I have experienced bank accounts of mine and those I know be frozen, emptied without warning due to identity theft, a false criminal accusation, forgotten debts, etc. I also know very well that banks have data sharing relationships with Visa, etc, that form a full map of where and when you spend money to aid data brokers in selling changes in your behavior to advertisers. Do you really want metadata on every purchase you make at a sex shop or a pharmacy stored in databases and sold to the highest bidder? Cash has limits though. It is impractical and unsafe to put cash in the mail when paying friends back for dinner after we all go our separate ways or if I am buying something online I wish to be anonymous like a VPN subscription. In those cases Bitcoin solves a problem and I have legitimately used it on a regular basis for many years. I never use venmo etc and friends and I regularly settle debts with Bitcoin. I would prefer not to have to carry around cash all the time so when possible to use Bitcoin in retail, I do. I have used bitcoin to buy drinks at bars in Germany, electronics at big box stores in Japan, meals at various restaurants, and coffee hundreds of times. I can also get cash from Bitcoin ATMs worldwide without having to deal with a bank denying me my own money because I am in an unexpected country. Bitcoin, when purchased with cash, gives me all the privacy of cash with all the portability of a visa card.

newswasboring 4y ago
How are you purchasing bitcoin with cash? I know it happens but I don't know how it's happening. Is it safe?
- lrvick 4y ago
  Bitcoin ATMs, and repayment from friends when I pay for things in cash. There are also p2p exchanges like LocalCoinSwap where you can meet people in person in public places to buy or sell an amount of BTC you are comfortable carrying. Some let you use escrow where you deposit cash to a bank account then you are sent BTC on receipt. None of these methods can be stopped no matter how much regulators demand KYC from the Coinbases of the world. Humans can always trade directly. Similarly I am also paid directly in Bitcoin by some of my clients I do consulting for so neither side needs to fuss with bank transfers. Lastly I can always buy on an exchanges, convert to Monero, then back to Bitcoin to de-associate the Bitcoin to me.