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As explained in the text: the point isn't that these problems aren't solved by blockchain, they're amplified. E.g.: scams existed without blockchain, but now th

As explained in the text: the point isn't that these problems aren't solved by blockchain, they're amplified. E.g.: scams existed without blockchain, but now they're forever and permanently engraved into the blockchain. Code was always flawed, but now a bug isn't just a bug, it's a bug in a smart contract with potentially disastrous consequences that can never be properly fixed.

Grustaf 4y ago
This is not necessarily a flaw in the technology, it's just one way in which it differs from what we are used to. I think most coiners, who skew strongly libertarian, would argue that it's up to you to make sure your smart contracts work.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > I think most coiners, who skew strongly libertarian, would argue that it's up to you to make sure your smart contracts work. Ah yes, it's up to the user to review and debug code written in an esoteric programming language to make sure that it works... When even creators of said contracts can't find bugs in their code and fall prey to mistakes (sometimes after multiple audits)
  - Grustaf 4y ago
    Yes exactly.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      "This is not necessarily a flaw in technology". When is the last time you needed to debug the contract when you buy coffee?
      - Grustaf 4y ago
        Why would you need to involve a smart contract to buy coffee?
        dmitriid 4y ago
        Coffee is just an extreme example. The actual example I usually go for is selling/buying an apartment. I'm currently in Sweden, and I've gone through the process twice now. The contracts were several pages if clear text that even I, with my rudimentary knowledge of Swedish could understand. Good luck checking that everything is correct with a "smart contract" version.
        Grustaf 4y ago
        I've also bought property in Sweden, it's very simple. No need to involve a lawyer even. So where do smart contracts come in? Who would want to use a smart contract to buy an apartment? Unless possible the apartment deed was stored on the blockchain or something, but that is highly unlikely. Real estate is a very poor fit, since it's very heavily regulated in numerous ways. It's not just about ownership, and anonymous ownership of real estate is definitely a non-goal. It's an anti-goal.
        dmitriid 4y ago
        So, you keep coming up with "smart contracts are not a good fit for anything". Which really doesn't invalidate my original point.
        Grustaf 4y ago
        I mean I'm not a smart contract evangelist, I'm just replying to your point that they are risky, that you need to understand them before using them. You do, that's why most people shouldn't. As to use cases, you only proposed two things, coffee and real estate. Those examples are both silly, for different reasons. I think in general it very seldom would make sense to use smart contracts for real assets. The only real use cases I can think of are financial derivatives with crypto assets as underlying, and various decision making mechanisms that govern processes that are controlled by code. As soon as you need to cross into the physical world, it's hard to see how it would work. Then you need a centralised institution that people trust, which mostly defeats the purpose.
  - ulzeraj 4y ago
    That's correct. Smart contracts are absolutely bleeding edge features that work on top of an Ethereum-like chain which by itself doesn't mind advancing the roadmap even if something breaks. People should be advised about that before participating in smart contracts, which unfortunately doesn't always happen due to greed and hype. It doesn't mean however that we should just throw everything blockchain cryptocurrency related into the same sack and say its nonsense.
thriftwy 4y ago
I'm not sure why smart contracts don't come with signature (or just an address) - this way they can be updated by authorizing party but nobody else. By a transaction involving a contractcoin perhaps. You surely can't expect to author perfect code and set it in stone.
- Grustaf 4y ago
  If it's immutable, it only needs to be audited once.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    Have you ever written any code?
    - Grustaf 4y ago
      Yes, 10 hours a day, I work at a FAANG. Just pointing out the advantage. Clearly there are also disadvantages, and most people think the latter dwarf the former. I just want an honest and nuanced discussion.
cloutchaser 4y ago
This is almost a political argument. Because it's the same argument about free speech. In the end, you either believe in the individual's choice, and individuals will do really stupid and bad stuff, and they will also fall for scams, but do you give the individual freedom of choice to fall for scams and speak freely? This is a high risk option, perhaps. But it is also likely to be most effective at delivering progress to humanity, considering the difference between innovation over the last 200 years, has it happened in places with more freedom or less? On the other hand, you have the crowd obsessed with control, obsessed with how the idiot needs to be protected from their own stupidity, and the crowd needs to be protected from the speech of the idiot. But somehow when you control things, in the end they start being used by those in power to cement their power, and suddenly you have less freedom, less creativity, and more suffering. But it's nice for some, because everything is under control. Make your choice which side you are on.
- andrepd 4y ago
  You're making the fallacy of conflating two unrelated concepts and drawing conclusions from that.
  - cloutchaser 4y ago
    I've laid out how they are linked. Please debate my points rather than saying it's a fallacy, which adds nothing to the conversation and is basically an ad hominem attack like this (see, I can use these debating words too!)
- nicbou 4y ago
  > But it is also likely to be most effective at delivering progress to humanity How so? So far, crypto seems to amplify its worst trait: greed. It takes its destructive properties to new levels. > you have the crowd obsessed with control These controls are there for a reason. Controls create trust, and trust removes friction. Creating a stable currency and protecting people's money from scammers has nothing to do with censoring speech. It's a false equivalence. > you have less freedom, less creativity, and more suffering You also get this in an environment where the slightest mishap can irreversibly empty your savings account. > used by those in power to cement their power That's a problem with capital, not the currency with which it's expressed.

Grustaf 4y ago

This is not necessarily a flaw in the technology, it's just one way in which it differs from what we are used to. I think most coiners, who skew strongly libertarian, would argue that it's up to you to make sure your smart contracts work.

dmitriid 4y ago
> I think most coiners, who skew strongly libertarian, would argue that it's up to you to make sure your smart contracts work. Ah yes, it's up to the user to review and debug code written in an esoteric programming language to make sure that it works... When even creators of said contracts can't find bugs in their code and fall prey to mistakes (sometimes after multiple audits)
- Grustaf 4y ago
  Yes exactly.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    "This is not necessarily a flaw in technology". When is the last time you needed to debug the contract when you buy coffee?
    - Grustaf 4y ago
      Why would you need to involve a smart contract to buy coffee?
      - dmitriid 4y ago
        Coffee is just an extreme example. The actual example I usually go for is selling/buying an apartment. I'm currently in Sweden, and I've gone through the process twice now. The contracts were several pages if clear text that even I, with my rudimentary knowledge of Swedish could understand. Good luck checking that everything is correct with a "smart contract" version.
        Grustaf 4y ago
        I've also bought property in Sweden, it's very simple. No need to involve a lawyer even. So where do smart contracts come in? Who would want to use a smart contract to buy an apartment? Unless possible the apartment deed was stored on the blockchain or something, but that is highly unlikely. Real estate is a very poor fit, since it's very heavily regulated in numerous ways. It's not just about ownership, and anonymous ownership of real estate is definitely a non-goal. It's an anti-goal.
        dmitriid 4y ago
        So, you keep coming up with "smart contracts are not a good fit for anything". Which really doesn't invalidate my original point.
        Grustaf 4y ago
        I mean I'm not a smart contract evangelist, I'm just replying to your point that they are risky, that you need to understand them before using them. You do, that's why most people shouldn't. As to use cases, you only proposed two things, coffee and real estate. Those examples are both silly, for different reasons. I think in general it very seldom would make sense to use smart contracts for real assets. The only real use cases I can think of are financial derivatives with crypto assets as underlying, and various decision making mechanisms that govern processes that are controlled by code. As soon as you need to cross into the physical world, it's hard to see how it would work. Then you need a centralised institution that people trust, which mostly defeats the purpose.
- ulzeraj 4y ago
  That's correct. Smart contracts are absolutely bleeding edge features that work on top of an Ethereum-like chain which by itself doesn't mind advancing the roadmap even if something breaks. People should be advised about that before participating in smart contracts, which unfortunately doesn't always happen due to greed and hype. It doesn't mean however that we should just throw everything blockchain cryptocurrency related into the same sack and say its nonsense.

thriftwy 4y ago

I'm not sure why smart contracts don't come with signature (or just an address) - this way they can be updated by authorizing party but nobody else. By a transaction involving a contractcoin perhaps. You surely can't expect to author perfect code and set it in stone.

Grustaf 4y ago
If it's immutable, it only needs to be audited once.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  Have you ever written any code?
  - Grustaf 4y ago
    Yes, 10 hours a day, I work at a FAANG. Just pointing out the advantage. Clearly there are also disadvantages, and most people think the latter dwarf the former. I just want an honest and nuanced discussion.

cloutchaser 4y ago

This is almost a political argument. Because it's the same argument about free speech. In the end, you either believe in the individual's choice, and individuals will do really stupid and bad stuff, and they will also fall for scams, but do you give the individual freedom of choice to fall for scams and speak freely? This is a high risk option, perhaps. But it is also likely to be most effective at delivering progress to humanity, considering the difference between innovation over the last 200 years, has it happened in places with more freedom or less? On the other hand, you have the crowd obsessed with control, obsessed with how the idiot needs to be protected from their own stupidity, and the crowd needs to be protected from the speech of the idiot. But somehow when you control things, in the end they start being used by those in power to cement their power, and suddenly you have less freedom, less creativity, and more suffering. But it's nice for some, because everything is under control. Make your choice which side you are on.

andrepd 4y ago
You're making the fallacy of conflating two unrelated concepts and drawing conclusions from that.
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  I've laid out how they are linked. Please debate my points rather than saying it's a fallacy, which adds nothing to the conversation and is basically an ad hominem attack like this (see, I can use these debating words too!)
nicbou 4y ago
> But it is also likely to be most effective at delivering progress to humanity How so? So far, crypto seems to amplify its worst trait: greed. It takes its destructive properties to new levels. > you have the crowd obsessed with control These controls are there for a reason. Controls create trust, and trust removes friction. Creating a stable currency and protecting people's money from scammers has nothing to do with censoring speech. It's a false equivalence. > you have less freedom, less creativity, and more suffering You also get this in an environment where the slightest mishap can irreversibly empty your savings account. > used by those in power to cement their power That's a problem with capital, not the currency with which it's expressed.