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At first reading, Mathattack's response seems obviously the most appropriate (Unethical - presenting yourself under false pretenses, possibly breaking the rules

At first reading, Mathattack's response seems obviously the most appropriate (Unethical - presenting yourself under false pretenses, possibly breaking the rules of your placement office, lacking integrity, endangering your reputation, etc), but upon further reflection, Horofox's observation has currency also - in a world that now seems totally lacking in corporate responsibility to the worker (intentionally unfunding/underfunding pensions, layoffs of real people that occur strictly as a 'this quarter' response to share price, layoffs that happen as a result of offshoring every single function possible in order to maximize shareholder profit, prole/CEO pay ratios which haven't been seen since the Emancipation Proclamation, and on and on ad nauseum) why shouldn't each of us behave in a purely rational/self interested way? Is there a reason to have regard for the corporation in today's world? Odds are the company you accepted the offer from was very likely one which has no notion of a social contract - they need you today and if they don't need you tomorrow you'll surely be gone without a second thought, and if that's the case shouldn't we behave in a similar manner? Or does personal integrity still matter?

mathattack 15y ago
Bayouborne- Relevant points, but a couple thoughts: - For better or worse, work is like the prisoner's dilemma game. Some people assume, "Screw everyone else" because they view the game as just one play. In the reality, we have long careers. Companies that routinely take advantage of their employees don't stick around forever. In most fields being known as someone who will take the short term selfish path every time will eventually hurt you. - The obvious second point is of course you should avoid companies that have too crazy a CEO to workerbee pay scale, and that treat their employees poorly. - Most of the great success stories in technology are build on loyalty. Ron Conway commands great personal loyalty. (And goes the extra yard for his firms) Many of the legends of Silicon Valley are mentors to large groups of people. Not everyone acts selfishly. But if you do act unduly selfishly, you'll turn off even the most magnanimous people that can help. Just my 2 cents, but I do see this as black and white. I've seen many people take short cuts, and seen many people become highly successful. The two groups don't overlap.
- bayouborne 15y ago
  It appears (from my vantage point 1300 miles away) that the Valley is somewhat different what a lot of America has become. There may still exist in Cupertino, Los Gatos, etc, an enlightened collegiality, but what about the rest of non-startup America? I think we've again become the proverbial Cog in the Machine, actually worse than that, not even a cog, just the bloody goop that's unfortunately still needed for the time being to keep the machine running - and as the machine inevitably becomes more efficient, fewer cogs and a hell of a lot less lubricant will be needed. Again, in this new Brave New World, why should we care about the corporation? Sorry if I sound like a '20s Marxist, but [it's my] natural reaction everything I've seen happen in the last decade.
  - mathattack 15y ago
    Bayouborne- I respectfully disagree. I don't want to beat a dead horse too much since I usually protect my wallet when I hear folks preaching about ethics. (Why is it that ethics discussions usually follow people's economic position?) That said... I view it as the Golden Rule. Imagine you're heading to Tulane or Cal Tech or Stanford to recruit. It's taking a day off your schedule, but it's important to bring new folks in to the firm. You screen eighty resumes to interview twelve people, two of which you will bring back to your office for a full day of visits with your team and management. One of the two will get an offer. That's a lot of work. How would you feel if someone was just using this as practice because he would want to work for you later? If you found out, you would blacklist him from your company. Imagine you are one of the students at Tulane, CalTech or Stanford who doesn't have an offer yet. One lucky guy did. So you are trying hard to get on the interview list at Google, because that would certainly be a great first job out of school. Unfortunately you don't get chosen for the interview. Who does get chosen? Your classmate who already accepted an offer from somewhere else. How would that make you feel? What would you do? Talk to them? Talk to the company? In the latter case, it's not "Us against evil companies" it is being selfish at the expense of one's peers. In both cases it backfires. This is about people being professional with one another. Again - I don't want to rant too much on this, as most folks who lecture on ethics usually have hidden agendas. Thanks for listening. :-)

mathattack 15y ago

Bayouborne- Relevant points, but a couple thoughts: - For better or worse, work is like the prisoner's dilemma game. Some people assume, "Screw everyone else" because they view the game as just one play. In the reality, we have long careers. Companies that routinely take advantage of their employees don't stick around forever. In most fields being known as someone who will take the short term selfish path every time will eventually hurt you. - The obvious second point is of course you should avoid companies that have too crazy a CEO to workerbee pay scale, and that treat their employees poorly. - Most of the great success stories in technology are build on loyalty. Ron Conway commands great personal loyalty. (And goes the extra yard for his firms) Many of the legends of Silicon Valley are mentors to large groups of people. Not everyone acts selfishly. But if you do act unduly selfishly, you'll turn off even the most magnanimous people that can help. Just my 2 cents, but I do see this as black and white. I've seen many people take short cuts, and seen many people become highly successful. The two groups don't overlap.

bayouborne 15y ago
It appears (from my vantage point 1300 miles away) that the Valley is somewhat different what a lot of America has become. There may still exist in Cupertino, Los Gatos, etc, an enlightened collegiality, but what about the rest of non-startup America? I think we've again become the proverbial Cog in the Machine, actually worse than that, not even a cog, just the bloody goop that's unfortunately still needed for the time being to keep the machine running - and as the machine inevitably becomes more efficient, fewer cogs and a hell of a lot less lubricant will be needed. Again, in this new Brave New World, why should we care about the corporation? Sorry if I sound like a '20s Marxist, but [it's my] natural reaction everything I've seen happen in the last decade.
- mathattack 15y ago
  Bayouborne- I respectfully disagree. I don't want to beat a dead horse too much since I usually protect my wallet when I hear folks preaching about ethics. (Why is it that ethics discussions usually follow people's economic position?) That said... I view it as the Golden Rule. Imagine you're heading to Tulane or Cal Tech or Stanford to recruit. It's taking a day off your schedule, but it's important to bring new folks in to the firm. You screen eighty resumes to interview twelve people, two of which you will bring back to your office for a full day of visits with your team and management. One of the two will get an offer. That's a lot of work. How would you feel if someone was just using this as practice because he would want to work for you later? If you found out, you would blacklist him from your company. Imagine you are one of the students at Tulane, CalTech or Stanford who doesn't have an offer yet. One lucky guy did. So you are trying hard to get on the interview list at Google, because that would certainly be a great first job out of school. Unfortunately you don't get chosen for the interview. Who does get chosen? Your classmate who already accepted an offer from somewhere else. How would that make you feel? What would you do? Talk to them? Talk to the company? In the latter case, it's not "Us against evil companies" it is being selfish at the expense of one's peers. In both cases it backfires. This is about people being professional with one another. Again - I don't want to rant too much on this, as most folks who lecture on ethics usually have hidden agendas. Thanks for listening. :-)