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There is no evidence that the NSA monitors US citizens since the phone metadata collection program shuttered in 2019. https://nyti.ms/2Vy3gDW https://nyti.ms/2V

There is no evidence that the NSA monitors US citizens since the phone metadata collection program shuttered in 2019. https://nyti.ms/2Vy3gDW https://nyti.ms/2Vy3gDW

sneak 5y ago
There is also no evidence that they stopped; just that one "program" stopped. There's also a bunch of other arms of the USG that like to spy (both foreign and domestic) - the IC is more than just the NSA. The CIA is, for example, spying on domestic financial transactions. The NSA monitors a lot of US citizens. So does the CIA. Verizon and ATT and T-Mobile also keep logs, which are available to DHS/FBI/CIA/NSA/et al on demand without warrants.
- kube-system 5y ago
  Grouping those agencies together is an oversimplification as they have wildly different authority for data collection under the law. Also, saying that commercial data is available “without a warrant” is a strange framing of the issue. It’s available to anyone as long as the check doesn’t bounce.
  - sneak 5y ago
    > Grouping those agencies together is an oversimplification as they have wildly different authority for data collection under the law. They routinely operate outside of the law, using classified interpretations of what they believe the law allows them to do. This is not about what is or isn't lawful, they don't give a fuck about that. The CIA hacked American congressional computers to delete evidence (about the CIA torturing people), got caught, and lied about their deleting evidence, and nothing happens. What is or is not permitted "under the law" is completely, totally irrelevant and bringing it up is a red herring. > Also, saying that commercial data is available “without a warrant” is a strange framing of the issue. It’s available to anyone as long as the check doesn’t bounce. This isn't true.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  Every US citizen with a security clearance is fair game for warrantless monitoring at any time. They get to maintain a domestic surveillance apparatus just for that capability alone. Of course, once you have a hammer...
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    Source / citation?
civilized 5y ago
> There is no evidence that the NSA monitors US citizens since the phone metadata collection program shuttered in 2019. This is an amazing sentence.
- greycol 5y ago
  It really is a great one. I think it evokes such incredulity that someone could point it out in good faith while also technically possibly being a correct statement that it's just humourous by itself. It's got the irony that evidence is not evidence unless people know about it and the fact the agency is known for hiding what they do from even the institutions that are supposed to oversee it. You've got the leap of faith to take at face value that an agency that denied a program existed for years, continued the program for years after it was pointed out it was illegal has said it's not doing it anymore. The relative recentness of the actions by specifying 2019. There's so much to unpack.
  - civilized 5y ago
    I just can't understand why you'd think they'd do such a thing! There's absolutely no evidence!
  - lern_too_spel 5y ago
    At the time the program was shut down in 2019, it was completely legal, having been written into law. You are claiming that the NSA is doing something illegal, yet in the vast trove of documents that Snowden released, there was only one program that was possibly illegal. Prior to Snowden's leaks, I would have been more open to believing they were involved in the type of extralegal activities the CIA was notorious for, but after Snowden's leaks, it became clear that this wasn't the case. Suppose Snowden were the SharePoint admin at your company and leaked all its documents to the press. Do you think there would be only one questionably legal program in there?
    - greycol 5y ago
      It wasn't even questionably legal for 4 years where it was publicly known to be illegal let alone the length of time before that while it was operating in secret. That would be like saying drinking alcohol during prohibition was questionably legal which is flat out wrong no matter your morality. I can guarantee you that 1 in 400 of our projects by budget at my work aren't ilegal or could even have questions raised about their legality. Like most companies if we found a project that was illegal or found an employee was routinely breaking local law to do his job that would be fixed immediately not in 4 years while we waited for it to become legal. And if it turned out I was wrong and people where purposefully commiting crimes against my fellow countrymen I'd be cheering the whistleblower who brought it to light while looking for a different job that wasn't such a cesspit of moral compromise. The silliest part about your statements is you seem to be ignoring the problem by focusinng on only (I won't even say positives because your just saying it is no longer illegal and that there is no up to the minute evidence from inside a secret organization) the neutrals in the situation. You're doing the equivalent of saying yes the arsonist set fires and destroyed 1000s of acres but isn't the sunset pretty because of the smoke. Oh and look the firetrucks put out the fire after only a couple of hikers died. Plus people did want to do a controlled burn of that forest at some point so we shouldn't take away his lighter and certainly shouldn't charge him.
kdtsh 5y ago
There was also no evidence before the 2013 disclosures (to my knowledge) that the NSA monitored US citizens using phone metadata at all. A bit of healthy scepticism is good for you.
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  Except there absolutely was. The only NSA US surveillance program that Snowden leaked was known about in 2006, when Mark Klein revealed it. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-ns...
tremon 5y ago
So, we're back to the pre-Snowden era?
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  Snowden's leaks contained a single program that collected US data at the time, which Mark Klein had already revealed in 2006. That program was reduced after Snowden's leaks and then shut down entirely in 2019.

There is no evidence that the NSA monitors US citizens since the phone metadata collection program shuttered in 2019. https://nyti.ms/2Vy3gDW https://nyti.ms/2Vy3gDW

sneak 5y ago

There is also no evidence that they stopped; just that one "program" stopped. There's also a bunch of other arms of the USG that like to spy (both foreign and domestic) - the IC is more than just the NSA. The CIA is, for example, spying on domestic financial transactions. The NSA monitors a lot of US citizens. So does the CIA. Verizon and ATT and T-Mobile also keep logs, which are available to DHS/FBI/CIA/NSA/et al on demand without warrants.

kube-system 5y ago
Grouping those agencies together is an oversimplification as they have wildly different authority for data collection under the law. Also, saying that commercial data is available “without a warrant” is a strange framing of the issue. It’s available to anyone as long as the check doesn’t bounce.
- sneak 5y ago
  > Grouping those agencies together is an oversimplification as they have wildly different authority for data collection under the law. They routinely operate outside of the law, using classified interpretations of what they believe the law allows them to do. This is not about what is or isn't lawful, they don't give a fuck about that. The CIA hacked American congressional computers to delete evidence (about the CIA torturing people), got caught, and lied about their deleting evidence, and nothing happens. What is or is not permitted "under the law" is completely, totally irrelevant and bringing it up is a red herring. > Also, saying that commercial data is available “without a warrant” is a strange framing of the issue. It’s available to anyone as long as the check doesn’t bounce. This isn't true.
kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
Every US citizen with a security clearance is fair game for warrantless monitoring at any time. They get to maintain a domestic surveillance apparatus just for that capability alone. Of course, once you have a hammer...
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Source / citation?

civilized 5y ago

> There is no evidence that the NSA monitors US citizens since the phone metadata collection program shuttered in 2019. This is an amazing sentence.

greycol 5y ago
It really is a great one. I think it evokes such incredulity that someone could point it out in good faith while also technically possibly being a correct statement that it's just humourous by itself. It's got the irony that evidence is not evidence unless people know about it and the fact the agency is known for hiding what they do from even the institutions that are supposed to oversee it. You've got the leap of faith to take at face value that an agency that denied a program existed for years, continued the program for years after it was pointed out it was illegal has said it's not doing it anymore. The relative recentness of the actions by specifying 2019. There's so much to unpack.
- civilized 5y ago
  I just can't understand why you'd think they'd do such a thing! There's absolutely no evidence!
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  At the time the program was shut down in 2019, it was completely legal, having been written into law. You are claiming that the NSA is doing something illegal, yet in the vast trove of documents that Snowden released, there was only one program that was possibly illegal. Prior to Snowden's leaks, I would have been more open to believing they were involved in the type of extralegal activities the CIA was notorious for, but after Snowden's leaks, it became clear that this wasn't the case. Suppose Snowden were the SharePoint admin at your company and leaked all its documents to the press. Do you think there would be only one questionably legal program in there?
  - greycol 5y ago
    It wasn't even questionably legal for 4 years where it was publicly known to be illegal let alone the length of time before that while it was operating in secret. That would be like saying drinking alcohol during prohibition was questionably legal which is flat out wrong no matter your morality. I can guarantee you that 1 in 400 of our projects by budget at my work aren't ilegal or could even have questions raised about their legality. Like most companies if we found a project that was illegal or found an employee was routinely breaking local law to do his job that would be fixed immediately not in 4 years while we waited for it to become legal. And if it turned out I was wrong and people where purposefully commiting crimes against my fellow countrymen I'd be cheering the whistleblower who brought it to light while looking for a different job that wasn't such a cesspit of moral compromise. The silliest part about your statements is you seem to be ignoring the problem by focusinng on only (I won't even say positives because your just saying it is no longer illegal and that there is no up to the minute evidence from inside a secret organization) the neutrals in the situation. You're doing the equivalent of saying yes the arsonist set fires and destroyed 1000s of acres but isn't the sunset pretty because of the smoke. Oh and look the firetrucks put out the fire after only a couple of hikers died. Plus people did want to do a controlled burn of that forest at some point so we shouldn't take away his lighter and certainly shouldn't charge him.

kdtsh 5y ago

There was also no evidence before the 2013 disclosures (to my knowledge) that the NSA monitored US citizens using phone metadata at all. A bit of healthy scepticism is good for you.

lern_too_spel 5y ago
Except there absolutely was. The only NSA US surveillance program that Snowden leaked was known about in 2006, when Mark Klein revealed it. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-ns...

tremon 5y ago

So, we're back to the pre-Snowden era?

lern_too_spel 5y ago
Snowden's leaks contained a single program that collected US data at the time, which Mark Klein had already revealed in 2006. That program was reduced after Snowden's leaks and then shut down entirely in 2019.