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It's making me want to buy a Kia even less. Though, I'm likely not the target demographic; being an aging curmudgeon who usually buys used, repairs himself, an

It's making me want to buy a Kia even less. Though, I'm likely not the target demographic; being an aging curmudgeon who usually buys used, repairs himself, and runs into the ground before buying again.

HPsquared 4y ago
The more (other) people buy new cars, the cheaper they become in the used market.
- sjg007 4y ago
  We want people to buy electric cars as the first car.
  - epolanski 4y ago
    Why? Unless you drive it a lot you are polluting much more than with a normal car. The best first car is no car or a used car.
    - sjg007 4y ago
      Not true.. And your new car becomes a used car eventually.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        I wonder at what point the externalities (count them however you want) tip away from repairing an old car.
        sjg007 4y ago
        How many pre 90 cars do you see on the roads?
        bombcar 4y ago
        Most people stop repairing cars long before it becomes carbon-friendly to do so, since they're only taking into account cost and reliability.
      - epolanski 4y ago
        Yes it is. Creating a new car produces massive amounts of carbon pollution. For a mid-sized average sedan the pollution created from finding and smelting ore to the massive amounts of energy and water required during production it takes around 45/50k miles just to offset production alone, and that's assuming the new car does not use any energy. Add to this that producing batteries is even much more taxing on the planet both in terms of resources and toxicity. Add to this yet another thing: unless the energy that's produced wherever you recharge your car isn't coming from renewables the gains in pollution are further limited. So, to conclude: unless you commute a lot, plan to keep your car for a long time and you live in an area where there is a huge % of renewables the, by far greenest solution is to buy a used car or keep your one, even if it has an old polluting engine, it's gonna pollute much less than producing a new car and using gas and coal to power it
        sjg007 4y ago
        This is just nonsense.
        epolanski 4y ago
        You really are a man full of arguments, aren't you? According to EPA the average car during its lifecycle produces 38 metric tons of CO2 if it reaches 200k miles. Producing a car alone, producing it, without putting a single mile in it produces between 7 and 35 metric tons (based on the size of the vehicle). If you can do very basic math you can understand that the greener option is ALWAYS to keep your old car, unless, again, you do really a lot of miles and electricity in your country is mostly (70%+) renewable. But that truth is hardly said loud, because it doesn't sell lots of cars and doesn't make enough money. Meanwhile we're killing the planet even further convincing places like southern europe to buy electric cars even tho they mostly use gas to produce electricity in the first place. There's plenty of studies online you can read: https://bfy.tw/SyoX https://bfy.tw/SyoX
        sjg007 4y ago
        It is better to talk about the lifetime of a car vs the lifetime of your use of a car. An new electric car has better carbon emissions than a new gas car after 13k miles. Your point of purchasing a "used car" as a better option reduces carbon emissions by removing vehicles from the system. Don't buy new cars as a Co2 mitigation strategy is unrealistic and against buying electric is just pedantic and your argument is frankly misleading. If you want to cite the EPA: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

HPsquared 4y ago

The more (other) people buy new cars, the cheaper they become in the used market.

sjg007 4y ago
We want people to buy electric cars as the first car.
- epolanski 4y ago
  Why? Unless you drive it a lot you are polluting much more than with a normal car. The best first car is no car or a used car.
  - sjg007 4y ago
    Not true.. And your new car becomes a used car eventually.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      I wonder at what point the externalities (count them however you want) tip away from repairing an old car.
      - sjg007 4y ago
        How many pre 90 cars do you see on the roads?
        bombcar 4y ago
        Most people stop repairing cars long before it becomes carbon-friendly to do so, since they're only taking into account cost and reliability.
    - epolanski 4y ago
      Yes it is. Creating a new car produces massive amounts of carbon pollution. For a mid-sized average sedan the pollution created from finding and smelting ore to the massive amounts of energy and water required during production it takes around 45/50k miles just to offset production alone, and that's assuming the new car does not use any energy. Add to this that producing batteries is even much more taxing on the planet both in terms of resources and toxicity. Add to this yet another thing: unless the energy that's produced wherever you recharge your car isn't coming from renewables the gains in pollution are further limited. So, to conclude: unless you commute a lot, plan to keep your car for a long time and you live in an area where there is a huge % of renewables the, by far greenest solution is to buy a used car or keep your one, even if it has an old polluting engine, it's gonna pollute much less than producing a new car and using gas and coal to power it
      - sjg007 4y ago
        This is just nonsense.
        epolanski 4y ago
        You really are a man full of arguments, aren't you? According to EPA the average car during its lifecycle produces 38 metric tons of CO2 if it reaches 200k miles. Producing a car alone, producing it, without putting a single mile in it produces between 7 and 35 metric tons (based on the size of the vehicle). If you can do very basic math you can understand that the greener option is ALWAYS to keep your old car, unless, again, you do really a lot of miles and electricity in your country is mostly (70%+) renewable. But that truth is hardly said loud, because it doesn't sell lots of cars and doesn't make enough money. Meanwhile we're killing the planet even further convincing places like southern europe to buy electric cars even tho they mostly use gas to produce electricity in the first place. There's plenty of studies online you can read: https://bfy.tw/SyoX https://bfy.tw/SyoX
        sjg007 4y ago
        It is better to talk about the lifetime of a car vs the lifetime of your use of a car. An new electric car has better carbon emissions than a new gas car after 13k miles. Your point of purchasing a "used car" as a better option reduces carbon emissions by removing vehicles from the system. Don't buy new cars as a Co2 mitigation strategy is unrealistic and against buying electric is just pedantic and your argument is frankly misleading. If you want to cite the EPA: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths