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> The depths to which North Korea goes to track and monitor its citizens is a lot more complex than I thought (and this video is from 6 years ago, so they’ve pr

> The depths to which North Korea goes to track and monitor its citizens is a lot more complex than I thought (and this video is from 6 years ago, so they’ve probably only improved their surveillance) If you think that’s wild, get a load of what the NSA and GCHQ do

erdos4d 4y ago
Yeah, I've yet to hear of NK sending submarines to tap undersea cables or storing essentially all internet traffic for future decryption efforts. Their little spy OS seems pretty quaint in comparison.
- MaxLeiter 4y ago
  I expect the Five Eyes to have that level of sophistication
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    No need to tap any cables if you're the OEM for the gear at the endpoints.
    - ZoomerCretin 4y ago
      This is probably the real reason why Chinese networking equipment was banned in the US and other Five Eyes countries.
      - dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
        This was the stated reason too, at least here in Europe. National security, which is a polite way of saying the Chinese would tap them. Which they definitely would, since we would too in their position.
        ZoomerCretin 4y ago
        No, I meant that using Chinese networking equipment was banned because it wouldn't have a Five Eyes backdoor.
  - erdos4d 4y ago
    Yeah, that's kinda what I was saying, they definitely do:)
- dylan604 4y ago
  Not sure why this is being down voted as it is a true story. The underwater recording unit was on display in the Kremlin (is it still?) with a "Made in USA" plaque attached for all to see. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/intelligence-coup-how-one-us-nuclear-submarine-tapped-russian-undersea-cables-159086 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/intelligence-coup-how...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - IfOnlyYouKnew 4y ago
    The cable this sub tapped was the line between Kamchatka and Vladivostok. Both sound a bit like Nantucket, but really aren't in Massachusetts or any other US state. This thread started with "track and monitor its citizens" and continued "If you think that’s wild, ...", the latter of which was going for the tu quoque, i. e. "the US is worse than North Korea", for which the example is useless. It would work well in supporting the argument that the NSA (or CIA) had some rather sophisticated technology all the way back in the 80s, at least compared to North Korea, which, frankly, wouldn't be very surprising but at least somewhat sane, which makes it a rather sad commentary on the state of discourse that there is zero doubt which argument the parent comment was going for.
    - More-nitors 4y ago
      ditto this. why even send subs when you can just subpoena local ISPs? the subs can't be remotely related to US citizens
      - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
        One of their workarounds for violating the constitution is to route domestic traffic out of country so that it is classified as "foreign" and fair game for collection.
        dylan604 4y ago
- wwweston 4y ago
  "Wait 'til you hear about people who record conversations the park! The spook bouncing lasers off the window of your home & office to reconstruct audio of your conversations will seem quaint by comparison." In other words: most of the proper sense of proportion here is set by what reasonable expectations of privacy are. I can certainly appreciate the merits of a communication channel that features secure messages in transit. But I don't expect that by default. Privacy expectations should be set by contract or statute. On the other hand, I definitely expect that conversations in my residence or data on my device should be private by default. Eavesdropping is a whole different category from intrusion, even if you find both unpleasant.
lern_too_spel 4y ago
There is no evidence that the NSA monitors US citizens since the phone metadata collection program shuttered in 2019. https://nyti.ms/2Vy3gDW https://nyti.ms/2Vy3gDW
- sneak 4y ago
  There is also no evidence that they stopped; just that one "program" stopped. There's also a bunch of other arms of the USG that like to spy (both foreign and domestic) - the IC is more than just the NSA. The CIA is, for example, spying on domestic financial transactions. The NSA monitors a lot of US citizens. So does the CIA. Verizon and ATT and T-Mobile also keep logs, which are available to DHS/FBI/CIA/NSA/et al on demand without warrants.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Grouping those agencies together is an oversimplification as they have wildly different authority for data collection under the law. Also, saying that commercial data is available “without a warrant” is a strange framing of the issue. It’s available to anyone as long as the check doesn’t bounce.
    - sneak 4y ago
      > Grouping those agencies together is an oversimplification as they have wildly different authority for data collection under the law. They routinely operate outside of the law, using classified interpretations of what they believe the law allows them to do. This is not about what is or isn't lawful, they don't give a fuck about that. The CIA hacked American congressional computers to delete evidence (about the CIA torturing people), got caught, and lied about their deleting evidence, and nothing happens. What is or is not permitted "under the law" is completely, totally irrelevant and bringing it up is a red herring. > Also, saying that commercial data is available “without a warrant” is a strange framing of the issue. It’s available to anyone as long as the check doesn’t bounce. This isn't true.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
mindslight 4y ago
There is a significant difference in the degree of invasion between controlling the software users can run on their personal devices, and passively tapping the communication links between them. For NK, the former is backed up by direct laws mandating such direct control, while the latter is mainly made effective by users not doing the work to use privacy preserving protocols. While we most certainly should condemn NSA's actions and work for our own society to become freer, we must not equate the two lest we end up forgetting which direction is up - just like many have done with regards to Russia's war on Ukraine.
- hammock 4y ago
  >For NK, the former is backed up by direct laws mandating such direct control, while the latter is mainly made effective by users not doing the work to use privacy preserving protocols. What Ennesay does is either illegal or secretly justified (take your pick), and they lie to the rest of government and the public about what they do. At least NK is open and expliciedit: to the downvoters, trust this is not me saying we need to be like NK. It’s me pointing out a flaw of the US government
  - irjustin 4y ago
    > At least NK is open and explicit. Disagreed, the secrecy is a symptom of desire to avoid public retaliation because they know it will affect those who sponsor such programs. This highlights there is need to continue to expose such systems via strong journalism + protections of freedom of speech (as written in the 1st amendment). Saying "at least NK is open and explicit" is because the government fears nothing with absolute control, and as the grandparent comment says - we cannot forget this key difference.
    - hammock 4y ago
      If you downvoted me you don’t realize we are on the same side. Did you think I wish the US as a whole was more like NK?
- scaramanga 4y ago
dang 4y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31185345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31185345.
- slim 4y ago
  why? conversations look polite to me
  - dang 4y ago
    It was a hop to a more generic/repetitive topic, which is generally to be avoided because the resulting discussions tend to be more shallow and less interesting. Doubly so when the hop is also in a more ideological or flamewar-prone direction.
scaramanga 4y ago
Or south-korean NIS. South korean internet is one of the most heavily tracked and restricted in the world.

erdos4d 4y ago

Yeah, I've yet to hear of NK sending submarines to tap undersea cables or storing essentially all internet traffic for future decryption efforts. Their little spy OS seems pretty quaint in comparison.

MaxLeiter 4y ago
I expect the Five Eyes to have that level of sophistication
- jacquesm 4y ago
  No need to tap any cables if you're the OEM for the gear at the endpoints.
  - ZoomerCretin 4y ago
    This is probably the real reason why Chinese networking equipment was banned in the US and other Five Eyes countries.
    - dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
      This was the stated reason too, at least here in Europe. National security, which is a polite way of saying the Chinese would tap them. Which they definitely would, since we would too in their position.
      - ZoomerCretin 4y ago
        No, I meant that using Chinese networking equipment was banned because it wouldn't have a Five Eyes backdoor.
- erdos4d 4y ago
  Yeah, that's kinda what I was saying, they definitely do:)
dylan604 4y ago
Not sure why this is being down voted as it is a true story. The underwater recording unit was on display in the Kremlin (is it still?) with a "Made in USA" plaque attached for all to see. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/intelligence-coup-how-one-us-nuclear-submarine-tapped-russian-undersea-cables-159086 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/intelligence-coup-how...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- IfOnlyYouKnew 4y ago
  The cable this sub tapped was the line between Kamchatka and Vladivostok. Both sound a bit like Nantucket, but really aren't in Massachusetts or any other US state. This thread started with "track and monitor its citizens" and continued "If you think that’s wild, ...", the latter of which was going for the tu quoque, i. e. "the US is worse than North Korea", for which the example is useless. It would work well in supporting the argument that the NSA (or CIA) had some rather sophisticated technology all the way back in the 80s, at least compared to North Korea, which, frankly, wouldn't be very surprising but at least somewhat sane, which makes it a rather sad commentary on the state of discourse that there is zero doubt which argument the parent comment was going for.
  - More-nitors 4y ago
    ditto this. why even send subs when you can just subpoena local ISPs? the subs can't be remotely related to US citizens
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      One of their workarounds for violating the constitution is to route domestic traffic out of country so that it is classified as "foreign" and fair game for collection.
      - dylan604 4y ago
wwweston 4y ago
"Wait 'til you hear about people who record conversations the park! The spook bouncing lasers off the window of your home & office to reconstruct audio of your conversations will seem quaint by comparison." In other words: most of the proper sense of proportion here is set by what reasonable expectations of privacy are. I can certainly appreciate the merits of a communication channel that features secure messages in transit. But I don't expect that by default. Privacy expectations should be set by contract or statute. On the other hand, I definitely expect that conversations in my residence or data on my device should be private by default. Eavesdropping is a whole different category from intrusion, even if you find both unpleasant.

lern_too_spel 4y ago

There is no evidence that the NSA monitors US citizens since the phone metadata collection program shuttered in 2019. https://nyti.ms/2Vy3gDW https://nyti.ms/2Vy3gDW

sneak 4y ago
There is also no evidence that they stopped; just that one "program" stopped. There's also a bunch of other arms of the USG that like to spy (both foreign and domestic) - the IC is more than just the NSA. The CIA is, for example, spying on domestic financial transactions. The NSA monitors a lot of US citizens. So does the CIA. Verizon and ATT and T-Mobile also keep logs, which are available to DHS/FBI/CIA/NSA/et al on demand without warrants.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Grouping those agencies together is an oversimplification as they have wildly different authority for data collection under the law. Also, saying that commercial data is available “without a warrant” is a strange framing of the issue. It’s available to anyone as long as the check doesn’t bounce.
  - sneak 4y ago
    > Grouping those agencies together is an oversimplification as they have wildly different authority for data collection under the law. They routinely operate outside of the law, using classified interpretations of what they believe the law allows them to do. This is not about what is or isn't lawful, they don't give a fuck about that. The CIA hacked American congressional computers to delete evidence (about the CIA torturing people), got caught, and lied about their deleting evidence, and nothing happens. What is or is not permitted "under the law" is completely, totally irrelevant and bringing it up is a red herring. > Also, saying that commercial data is available “without a warrant” is a strange framing of the issue. It’s available to anyone as long as the check doesn’t bounce. This isn't true.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago

mindslight 4y ago

There is a significant difference in the degree of invasion between controlling the software users can run on their personal devices, and passively tapping the communication links between them. For NK, the former is backed up by direct laws mandating such direct control, while the latter is mainly made effective by users not doing the work to use privacy preserving protocols. While we most certainly should condemn NSA's actions and work for our own society to become freer, we must not equate the two lest we end up forgetting which direction is up - just like many have done with regards to Russia's war on Ukraine.

hammock 4y ago
>For NK, the former is backed up by direct laws mandating such direct control, while the latter is mainly made effective by users not doing the work to use privacy preserving protocols. What Ennesay does is either illegal or secretly justified (take your pick), and they lie to the rest of government and the public about what they do. At least NK is open and expliciedit: to the downvoters, trust this is not me saying we need to be like NK. It’s me pointing out a flaw of the US government
- irjustin 4y ago
  > At least NK is open and explicit. Disagreed, the secrecy is a symptom of desire to avoid public retaliation because they know it will affect those who sponsor such programs. This highlights there is need to continue to expose such systems via strong journalism + protections of freedom of speech (as written in the 1st amendment). Saying "at least NK is open and explicit" is because the government fears nothing with absolute control, and as the grandparent comment says - we cannot forget this key difference.
  - hammock 4y ago
    If you downvoted me you don’t realize we are on the same side. Did you think I wish the US as a whole was more like NK?
scaramanga 4y ago

dang 4y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31185345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31185345.

slim 4y ago
why? conversations look polite to me
- dang 4y ago
  It was a hop to a more generic/repetitive topic, which is generally to be avoided because the resulting discussions tend to be more shallow and less interesting. Doubly so when the hop is also in a more ideological or flamewar-prone direction.

scaramanga 4y ago

Or south-korean NIS. South korean internet is one of the most heavily tracked and restricted in the world.