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I've often wondered if we need to radically change the State's relationship with the software it produces. As Robert Lessig famously observed, "code is law" in

by giobox 5y ago

I've often wondered if we need to radically change the State's relationship with the software it produces. As Robert Lessig famously observed, "code is law" in a world controlled by computers. There is increasingly a strong argument I feel in States directly employing software engineers much like they typically employ armies of civil servants to implement policy. Why is software treated as something to be outsourced to a private sector company? Why can't we have "civil programmers" who contribute to an ever growing body of public code just as the legislative process contributes to an ever growing body of laws. This body of civil programmers (terrible name but hey) could also work hand in hand with the open source community, letting stakeholders (citizens) contribute too.

rozularen 5y ago
I think it's mainly because of money? Sure if there were any existing public open source infrastructure people would be more willing to contribute for free. I think this brings the open source developers income issue to the table which is getting better but at its own pace.
bombcar 5y ago
Mainly because the government has no expertise in the area, so you have to convince politicians (who have no expertise in the area) that it is important, against those who DO have funding and will fight it as being "insecure" and various other buzzwords. Governments often don't even employ the armies of civil servants anymore, lots and lots of stuff is contracted out. The way around this might be to convince some of the smaller "tech wannabe" states to enact something, and let it grow from there.
jmole 5y ago
Code is only half of the problem here. The other half is operations. Applications don't just run on their own; they need deployment, maintenance, backup, recovery, new feature requests, etc. etc. Unlike the majority of infrastructure in the world, software literally isn't set in stone. This makes it much more powerful in some senses, but also much more fragile. Look at Hoover Dam - a project designed to last a hundred years with a pretty singular purpose. The operation and maintenance burden is clear, and basically unchanging throughout the lifetime of the dam. I agree with you in general here, but I think the actual work involved with your proposal is more akin to what the IT departments at agencies like the IRS or DMV are already doing. Specing systems for internal processes, and managing dataflow from old systems to new ones.
HWR_14 5y ago
> Why is software treated as something to be outsourced to a private sector company? At least in America, one political party is devoted to outsourcing everything to the private sector, including prisons! In the UK, at least one political party is trying to privatize and outsource everything. The succeeded with all the commuter rail in the 80s and now they want to do the same to the NHS. Long story short, there is a lot of money to be made.
Drblessing 5y ago
Imagine the government trying to develop software. Thanks, I needed a laugh.
einpoklum 5y ago
> "code is law" ... Why is software treated as something to be outsourced to a private sector company? Don't worry, many governments effectively outsource legislation to commercial lobbying bodies who feed draft and proposals to parliamentarians. Prominent example: The American Legislative Exchange Council, which even formalizes this practice. Why can't we have "civil programmers" who contribute to an ever growing body of public code just as the legislative process contributes to an ever growing body of laws. This body of civil programmers (terrible name but hey) could also work hand in hand with the open source community, letting stakeholders (citizens) contribute too.

by giobox 5y ago

rozularen 5y ago

I think it's mainly because of money? Sure if there were any existing public open source infrastructure people would be more willing to contribute for free. I think this brings the open source developers income issue to the table which is getting better but at its own pace.

bombcar 5y ago

Mainly because the government has no expertise in the area, so you have to convince politicians (who have no expertise in the area) that it is important, against those who DO have funding and will fight it as being "insecure" and various other buzzwords. Governments often don't even employ the armies of civil servants anymore, lots and lots of stuff is contracted out. The way around this might be to convince some of the smaller "tech wannabe" states to enact something, and let it grow from there.

jmole 5y ago

Code is only half of the problem here. The other half is operations. Applications don't just run on their own; they need deployment, maintenance, backup, recovery, new feature requests, etc. etc. Unlike the majority of infrastructure in the world, software literally isn't set in stone. This makes it much more powerful in some senses, but also much more fragile. Look at Hoover Dam - a project designed to last a hundred years with a pretty singular purpose. The operation and maintenance burden is clear, and basically unchanging throughout the lifetime of the dam. I agree with you in general here, but I think the actual work involved with your proposal is more akin to what the IT departments at agencies like the IRS or DMV are already doing. Specing systems for internal processes, and managing dataflow from old systems to new ones.

HWR_14 5y ago

> Why is software treated as something to be outsourced to a private sector company? At least in America, one political party is devoted to outsourcing everything to the private sector, including prisons! In the UK, at least one political party is trying to privatize and outsource everything. The succeeded with all the commuter rail in the 80s and now they want to do the same to the NHS. Long story short, there is a lot of money to be made.

Drblessing 5y ago

Imagine the government trying to develop software. Thanks, I needed a laugh.

einpoklum 5y ago

> "code is law" ... Why is software treated as something to be outsourced to a private sector company? Don't worry, many governments effectively outsource legislation to commercial lobbying bodies who feed draft and proposals to parliamentarians. Prominent example: The American Legislative Exchange Council, which even formalizes this practice. Why can't we have "civil programmers" who contribute to an ever growing body of public code just as the legislative process contributes to an ever growing body of laws. This body of civil programmers (terrible name but hey) could also work hand in hand with the open source community, letting stakeholders (citizens) contribute too.