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As someone who teachers at a university, the level of courses at WGU is absurdly low. I looked at the algorithms courses, the discrete math courses, and the AI

As someone who teachers at a university, the level of courses at WGU is absurdly low. I looked at the algorithms courses, the discrete math courses, and the AI course. These would not be acceptable in any CS department that I know. The material and exams are at the level of a high school education, nothing more. You got a piece of paper. You did not get a CS education. There are bootcamps that are much higher quality than this.

_caw 5y ago
Disclaimer: currently enrolled @ WGU. This comment comes off really strongly to me in the direction of gatekeeping. > These would not be acceptable in any CS department that I know. Personally, some of the courses I'm taking now are just as hard as those I took during undergrad at a brick-and-mortar university. I would say that the promised scope & depth of my undergrad courses at my brick-and-mortar university was greater, with interactive lessons, feedback, etc. On the other hand, to learn that breadth of material takes two interested parties. Often I had professors who wanted to research, not teach. Sometimes the course was taught entirely by TAs after hours. Usually the pace was so fast that I never had time to learn one thing before we moved on to the next. There were students who did the bare minimum, while others went beyond. That piece of paper symbolizing their "CS education" means much more to some than others. > You did not get a CS education. Hard to argue since you haven't defined "CS education", but I'll read it as "..the CS education that my university provides." I believe it, and acknowledge that not all CS educations are equal. > There are bootcamps that are much higher quality than this. I think the goals are different. WGU allows me to study at a slow pace, go as deep or as shallow as I please (while passing a minimum bar) and will grant me a B.S. at the end of it. I already have a job; what I'm missing is the degree. Perhaps I wouldn't feel such a strong need to get the degree, if it wasn't a prerequisite to even higher education!
- google234123 5y ago
  Brick and motor universities vary in quality and I’m not sure where you attend or what level classes you took - intro classes are typically weed out in stem and aren’t very fun. However, I think it’s pretty easy to see that the DS&A classes (not sure why it’s split into two courses, seems like WGU does that for every slightly challenging class) at WGU look completely watered down from what is taught in a single semester at the nearby university of Utah. Just look at this reddit post from students taking this class and you'll learn everything you need to know https://www.reddit.com/r/WGU_CompSci/comments/maty9w/c950_data_structures_and_algorithms_ii_need_help/ https://www.reddit.com/r/WGU_CompSci/comments/maty9w/c950_da... They are talking about learning about hashmaps (how, at this point in their education???) and it looks like the class can be completed by doing a single project. So yes, this is very unimpressive. Example DS&A course at Utah: https://www.cs.utah.edu/~miriah/teaching/cs2420/ https://www.cs.utah.edu/~miriah/teaching/cs2420/ Following Algorithms course: http://theory.cs.utah.edu/fall18/algorithms/ http://theory.cs.utah.edu/fall18/algorithms/ More than half the classes in the CS BS degree at WGU look like filler too: https://www.wgu.edu/content/dam/wgu-65-assets/western-governors/documents/program-guides/information-technology/BSCS.pdf https://www.wgu.edu/content/dam/wgu-65-assets/western-govern...
  - _caw 5y ago
    > Brick and motor universities vary in quality and I’m not sure where you attend or what level classes you took 3/4 years of a B.S. at a large research university, with 1 or 2 grad courses thrown in. > DS&A classes..at WGU look completely watered down from what is taught in a single semester at the nearby university of Utah. I agree with that. They do look watered down. > They are talking about learning about hashmaps (how, at this point in their education???) I checked the link and don't see what you are describing. One comment is talking about how to use a hashmap. But, I wouldn't be suprised if they didn't know what a hashmap was at all, since I've encountered that in undergrad at brick-and-mortar too. > More than half the classes in the CS BS degree at WGU look like filler too That's exactly how I feel about most gen-eds at a brick-and-mortar :) But, I am actually learning things from these filler courses that were never taught at my university, nor taught at the workplace, which honestly did surprise me in a good way.
- light_hue_1 5y ago
  > (while passing a minimum bar) and will grant me a B.S. at the end of it The minimum bar is too low. > Personally, some of the courses I'm taking now are just as hard as those I took during undergrad at a brick-and-mortar university. I can't argue with your lived experience. But I can tell you, as someone that teaches such courses, the ones offered by WGU are woefully inadequate. The material they cover, the depth in which they do it, the rigor of the problem sets and exams, are all wildly out of tune with what is offered in any CS department that I have ever seen. > This comment comes off really strongly to me in the direction of gatekeeping. I don't care about gatekeeping. If WGU wants to offer a CS degree, that's great. Let's get everyone involved. But! Then they should offer a CS degree with the same level of rigor that is expected of any other student in any other CS department. It is very disingenuous of them to say they provide CS degrees, but then target the courses to such a low level. > Perhaps I wouldn't feel such a strong need to get the degree, if it wasn't a prerequisite to even higher education! Except that a WGU degree will not open the doors to even higher education. I cannot imagine a single CS department admitting a PhD student based on their credentials from WGU. The effort required to convince someone that you know what you're doing, is so huge compared to getting the WGU degree, I don't think it contributes much.
yhoneycomb 5y ago
What differentiates a course as "high school" level vs. college? I honestly feel like my high school courses were just as hard as my college courses. The only difference is they required the prerequisite knowledge from the high school courses. Or, at least, having that knowledge helped.
- google234123 5y ago
  What classes at what university?
itslennysfault 5y ago
> There are bootcamps that are much higher quality than this. imo... bootcamps are much higher quality than most universities. I've interviewed at least 1000 engineers at this point, and I've interviewed a ton of top tier university graduates that are essentially useless and need to be trained up, but most bootcamp graduates can "hit the ground running" (but lack foundational skills). The idea that software engineering is some academic endeavor is so flawed. It's a trade, and should be taught in trade schools. (note I'm speaking of developers / software engineers. If you want to do computer research (etc) then I lean toward academic backgrounds)
- deaddodo 5y ago
  There is no better. It's two different types of education. Bootcamps are just a refined version of the "teach yourself" crowd and there's nothing wrong with that. If you're looking for engineers that can code a fullstack application in Typescript/React or a Backend/Front architecture in Python / Go / etc with a JSON API + a swift frontend; bootcampers will probably have a leg up. After all, they learned the specific knowledge to get them there. If you need an engineer that can do audio dsp programming, embedded bare metal and/or firmware bootstrapping + development, OS design, compiler/VM design, etc; you'd be hard-pressed to find a bootcamper that could do the job without extensive training, let alone hit the ground running. But ultimately, it's a moot point. After about 4 years, if they care more about the field than just as "a job" or "to pay bills" (e.g., they have a genuine interest and drive), either one will have enough experience to branch out and fill in their gaps.
  - triyambakam 5y ago
    > If you need an engineer that can do audio dsp programming, embedded bare metal and/or firmware bootstrapping + development, OS design, compiler/VM design, etc; you'd be hard-pressed to find a bootcamper that could do the job without extensive training Because there are no hardware/embedded bootcamps.
  - itslennysfault 5y ago
    I believe there is better. Applied skills like software development should be taught with hands-on education. It's no different than becoming an electrician. You don't go to university to learn that. You go to an apprenticeship program. It is my opinion that computer related trades should follow the format of the more physical trades. ALSO, you typically get PAID for an apprenticeship program. So, my opinion that it is in-fact a better way to learn aside. It's certainly financially superior.

_caw 5y ago

Disclaimer: currently enrolled @ WGU. This comment comes off really strongly to me in the direction of gatekeeping. > These would not be acceptable in any CS department that I know. Personally, some of the courses I'm taking now are just as hard as those I took during undergrad at a brick-and-mortar university. I would say that the promised scope & depth of my undergrad courses at my brick-and-mortar university was greater, with interactive lessons, feedback, etc. On the other hand, to learn that breadth of material takes two interested parties. Often I had professors who wanted to research, not teach. Sometimes the course was taught entirely by TAs after hours. Usually the pace was so fast that I never had time to learn one thing before we moved on to the next. There were students who did the bare minimum, while others went beyond. That piece of paper symbolizing their "CS education" means much more to some than others. > You did not get a CS education. Hard to argue since you haven't defined "CS education", but I'll read it as "..the CS education that my university provides." I believe it, and acknowledge that not all CS educations are equal. > There are bootcamps that are much higher quality than this. I think the goals are different. WGU allows me to study at a slow pace, go as deep or as shallow as I please (while passing a minimum bar) and will grant me a B.S. at the end of it. I already have a job; what I'm missing is the degree. Perhaps I wouldn't feel such a strong need to get the degree, if it wasn't a prerequisite to even higher education!

google234123 5y ago
Brick and motor universities vary in quality and I’m not sure where you attend or what level classes you took - intro classes are typically weed out in stem and aren’t very fun. However, I think it’s pretty easy to see that the DS&A classes (not sure why it’s split into two courses, seems like WGU does that for every slightly challenging class) at WGU look completely watered down from what is taught in a single semester at the nearby university of Utah. Just look at this reddit post from students taking this class and you'll learn everything you need to know https://www.reddit.com/r/WGU_CompSci/comments/maty9w/c950_data_structures_and_algorithms_ii_need_help/ https://www.reddit.com/r/WGU_CompSci/comments/maty9w/c950_da... They are talking about learning about hashmaps (how, at this point in their education???) and it looks like the class can be completed by doing a single project. So yes, this is very unimpressive. Example DS&A course at Utah: https://www.cs.utah.edu/~miriah/teaching/cs2420/ https://www.cs.utah.edu/~miriah/teaching/cs2420/ Following Algorithms course: http://theory.cs.utah.edu/fall18/algorithms/ http://theory.cs.utah.edu/fall18/algorithms/ More than half the classes in the CS BS degree at WGU look like filler too: https://www.wgu.edu/content/dam/wgu-65-assets/western-governors/documents/program-guides/information-technology/BSCS.pdf https://www.wgu.edu/content/dam/wgu-65-assets/western-govern...
- _caw 5y ago
  > Brick and motor universities vary in quality and I’m not sure where you attend or what level classes you took 3/4 years of a B.S. at a large research university, with 1 or 2 grad courses thrown in. > DS&A classes..at WGU look completely watered down from what is taught in a single semester at the nearby university of Utah. I agree with that. They do look watered down. > They are talking about learning about hashmaps (how, at this point in their education???) I checked the link and don't see what you are describing. One comment is talking about how to use a hashmap. But, I wouldn't be suprised if they didn't know what a hashmap was at all, since I've encountered that in undergrad at brick-and-mortar too. > More than half the classes in the CS BS degree at WGU look like filler too That's exactly how I feel about most gen-eds at a brick-and-mortar :) But, I am actually learning things from these filler courses that were never taught at my university, nor taught at the workplace, which honestly did surprise me in a good way.
light_hue_1 5y ago
> (while passing a minimum bar) and will grant me a B.S. at the end of it The minimum bar is too low. > Personally, some of the courses I'm taking now are just as hard as those I took during undergrad at a brick-and-mortar university. I can't argue with your lived experience. But I can tell you, as someone that teaches such courses, the ones offered by WGU are woefully inadequate. The material they cover, the depth in which they do it, the rigor of the problem sets and exams, are all wildly out of tune with what is offered in any CS department that I have ever seen. > This comment comes off really strongly to me in the direction of gatekeeping. I don't care about gatekeeping. If WGU wants to offer a CS degree, that's great. Let's get everyone involved. But! Then they should offer a CS degree with the same level of rigor that is expected of any other student in any other CS department. It is very disingenuous of them to say they provide CS degrees, but then target the courses to such a low level. > Perhaps I wouldn't feel such a strong need to get the degree, if it wasn't a prerequisite to even higher education! Except that a WGU degree will not open the doors to even higher education. I cannot imagine a single CS department admitting a PhD student based on their credentials from WGU. The effort required to convince someone that you know what you're doing, is so huge compared to getting the WGU degree, I don't think it contributes much.

yhoneycomb 5y ago

What differentiates a course as "high school" level vs. college? I honestly feel like my high school courses were just as hard as my college courses. The only difference is they required the prerequisite knowledge from the high school courses. Or, at least, having that knowledge helped.

google234123 5y ago
What classes at what university?

itslennysfault 5y ago

> There are bootcamps that are much higher quality than this. imo... bootcamps are much higher quality than most universities. I've interviewed at least 1000 engineers at this point, and I've interviewed a ton of top tier university graduates that are essentially useless and need to be trained up, but most bootcamp graduates can "hit the ground running" (but lack foundational skills). The idea that software engineering is some academic endeavor is so flawed. It's a trade, and should be taught in trade schools. (note I'm speaking of developers / software engineers. If you want to do computer research (etc) then I lean toward academic backgrounds)

deaddodo 5y ago
There is no better. It's two different types of education. Bootcamps are just a refined version of the "teach yourself" crowd and there's nothing wrong with that. If you're looking for engineers that can code a fullstack application in Typescript/React or a Backend/Front architecture in Python / Go / etc with a JSON API + a swift frontend; bootcampers will probably have a leg up. After all, they learned the specific knowledge to get them there. If you need an engineer that can do audio dsp programming, embedded bare metal and/or firmware bootstrapping + development, OS design, compiler/VM design, etc; you'd be hard-pressed to find a bootcamper that could do the job without extensive training, let alone hit the ground running. But ultimately, it's a moot point. After about 4 years, if they care more about the field than just as "a job" or "to pay bills" (e.g., they have a genuine interest and drive), either one will have enough experience to branch out and fill in their gaps.
- triyambakam 5y ago
  > If you need an engineer that can do audio dsp programming, embedded bare metal and/or firmware bootstrapping + development, OS design, compiler/VM design, etc; you'd be hard-pressed to find a bootcamper that could do the job without extensive training Because there are no hardware/embedded bootcamps.
- itslennysfault 5y ago
  I believe there is better. Applied skills like software development should be taught with hands-on education. It's no different than becoming an electrician. You don't go to university to learn that. You go to an apprenticeship program. It is my opinion that computer related trades should follow the format of the more physical trades. ALSO, you typically get PAID for an apprenticeship program. So, my opinion that it is in-fact a better way to learn aside. It's certainly financially superior.