3 ms·

Occupying My Mind

42 points by mtviewdave 15y ago

reasonattlm 15y ago
This has been coming for a while, and the end of empire is an accelerating process: http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2009/02/the-decline-is-always-slow-until-the-rapid-collapse-at-the-end.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2009/02/the-decline-is-al... "Freedom and other necessities for prosperity (such as the rule of law, absence of taxation, and so forth) have been in decline in the US over the past decade. The specific proximate causes for the legislation and social changes that brought this decline don't really matter all that much - there is always some sequence of events that politicians and populace can use as justification and cover to further destroy all the qualities that once made their society great." http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2011/10/the-prospects-for-a-near-term-funding-desert.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2011/10/the-prospects-for... "It's no great secret that the US is decaying; this is history unfolding as a procedural. The US is ever more rapidly becoming just another Europe, Japan, or pick your dysfunctional fascist-leaning (per the dictionary definition) economy of choice. The ending of empires that centralize economic and legislative power, develop a ruling class, grow their military, and debase their currency is pretty much written in stone - it's the details of the move from wealth enjoyed in freedom to authoritarian poverty that will surprise people in their nature and timing."
- te_chris 15y ago
  The absence of taxation is not a prerequisite for prosperity. Government is the only institution that we, as citizens of secular democracies, have to protect us from undue influence from theocracy and plutocracy - and taxation is the most efficient way to fund this. Most governments are failing at exacting their democratic duties, however, because over the last 50 years, through incredibly effective lobbying, they have allowed themselves to be captured by special interests and the actual rules and accountability frameworks that governments operate within have been distorted and perverted. This has happened to the point that most western nations may still have 1 person == 1 vote, but they barely have representative democracy. We need to reform government and strengthen its ability to act as the trusted protector of its people against unhealthy factional interests, not destroy it.
JonnieCache 15y ago
The unions, in the words of BBC economics editor Paul Mason, 'find themselves a "stage army" to be marched on and off the scene of history.' They're useful for their numbers, but I don't think the majority of people in these modern movements find them totally credible.
wavephorm 15y ago
The only real way out is to abandon conventional capitalism. Corporations are getting TOO good at extracting wealth out of citizens and leaving them with less and less ability to gain wealth of their own. The slip knots are getting tighter and stronger with time because the system is designed by those most likely to benefit from this socio-economic structure.
- mseebach 15y ago
  The financial sector is by far the most heavily regulated and protected across the entire western world. There is nothing "conventional" about that brand of "capitalism". Show me a corporation that's "TOO good at extracting wealth out of citizens and leaving them with less and less ability to gain wealth of their own" and I'll show you a corporation that's in bed with the political system.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - wavephorm 15y ago
    And look no further than the many cartels that have been erected: oil, telecom, healthcare, energy, and of course banking & finance. These industries are held together by the government and the laws are written to keep competitors out at every scale.
    - dereg 15y ago
      You've nailed it. I disagree, however, with your labeling that as "conventional capitalism". That's crony capitalism, and always has been. As they say, capitalists hate capitalism.
    - mseebach 15y ago
      My point is that pointing the anger at corporations without equally blaming government won't fix anything.
- ddw 15y ago
Swizec 15y ago
The thing that bothers me most about the #OWS movement is that it isn't the 99% protesting against the 1%. It's the 10% protesting against the 1%. In principle I agree with the movement, hell, I will always support anyone wanting to stick it to the man. But I wonder how many realize that their freedom and ability to have this opinion is built on the breaking backs of pretty much most of the world?
- pohl 15y ago
  The 10%, really? Wouldn't that be in the neighborhood of 130k? http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/09/us-household-income http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/09/us-househo...
  - fr0sty 15y ago
    I believe the GP was speaking globally. There are probably a billion people who would love to be poor in america.
- Permit 15y ago
  I'm of the exact same opinion, but I'd wager it's even less than 10%. According to http://www.globalrichlist.com/ http://www.globalrichlist.com/ if you make over $50,000 you're part of the wealthiest 1% in the world. It's a fact that's largely glossed over. I can relate to many of the concerns of the OWS movement (corporate political donations, loose banking regulations), but there's a lot of problems with the movement as well.
- blatherard 15y ago
  I've read variants of the point that the protesters are "rich" by a global standard. It's an interesting observation, but I don't see how it should change the protesters actions or positions or mine as a mostly-supporter. I'd compare this to the civil rights movement. There were plenty of privileged whites who protested segregation in the US. You could have then reasonably argued that they were privileged because the US systematically enslaved and then repressed blacks. And I would say to this, "So what?" They were protesting something they saw as a problem, on the basis of their shared humanity.
adnam 15y ago
Are union dues that much? I pay around 10€/month.
norswap 15y ago
"Whether it be the tea party on the right or the #OWS on the left, the citizens of the US are clamoring for change." The tea party that cheers execution ? Somehow I don't think they'll change things for the best.
- mseebach 15y ago
  If you judge the entire tea party movement by a riled up audience acting stupid at a debate, you're missing an important point (the exact one being made in the last nine words of the quoted sentence). Also, if you're being consistent, any show of idiocy from OWS protesters (you can start with the Lyndon LaRouche bunch) should lead you to discount that entire movement, too.
Mz 15y ago
I'd like to do what I can do to help make sure that change is intelligent progressive change taking us forward to a new prosperity, not backward into a false hope for a time that has passed and is not coming back. And I'm wondering if the #OWS movement is interested in that conversation. My assumption would be "not". Light one small candle rather than curse the dark. Talk with the people who will discuss it, regardless of their affiliation (with #OWS or not). Dark times are a time when the future gestates. Decide what you want born of it and become the (gentle) midwife to it's (probably bloody) birth. Peace.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

42 points by mtviewdave 15y ago

This has been coming for a while, and the end of empire is an accelerating process: http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2009/02/the-decline-is-always-slow-until-the-rapid-collapse-at-the-end.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2009/02/the-decline-is-al... "Freedom and other necessities for prosperity (such as the rule of law, absence of taxation, and so forth) have been in decline in the US over the past decade. The specific proximate causes for the legislation and social changes that brought this decline don't really matter all that much - there is always some sequence of events that politicians and populace can use as justification and cover to further destroy all the qualities that once made their society great." http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2011/10/the-prospects-for-a-near-term-funding-desert.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2011/10/the-prospects-for... "It's no great secret that the US is decaying; this is history unfolding as a procedural. The US is ever more rapidly becoming just another Europe, Japan, or pick your dysfunctional fascist-leaning (per the dictionary definition) economy of choice. The ending of empires that centralize economic and legislative power, develop a ruling class, grow their military, and debase their currency is pretty much written in stone - it's the details of the move from wealth enjoyed in freedom to authoritarian poverty that will surprise people in their nature and timing."

te_chris 15y ago
The absence of taxation is not a prerequisite for prosperity. Government is the only institution that we, as citizens of secular democracies, have to protect us from undue influence from theocracy and plutocracy - and taxation is the most efficient way to fund this. Most governments are failing at exacting their democratic duties, however, because over the last 50 years, through incredibly effective lobbying, they have allowed themselves to be captured by special interests and the actual rules and accountability frameworks that governments operate within have been distorted and perverted. This has happened to the point that most western nations may still have 1 person == 1 vote, but they barely have representative democracy. We need to reform government and strengthen its ability to act as the trusted protector of its people against unhealthy factional interests, not destroy it.

JonnieCache 15y ago

The unions, in the words of BBC economics editor Paul Mason, 'find themselves a "stage army" to be marched on and off the scene of history.' They're useful for their numbers, but I don't think the majority of people in these modern movements find them totally credible.

wavephorm 15y ago

The only real way out is to abandon conventional capitalism. Corporations are getting TOO good at extracting wealth out of citizens and leaving them with less and less ability to gain wealth of their own. The slip knots are getting tighter and stronger with time because the system is designed by those most likely to benefit from this socio-economic structure.

mseebach 15y ago
The financial sector is by far the most heavily regulated and protected across the entire western world. There is nothing "conventional" about that brand of "capitalism". Show me a corporation that's "TOO good at extracting wealth out of citizens and leaving them with less and less ability to gain wealth of their own" and I'll show you a corporation that's in bed with the political system.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- wavephorm 15y ago
  And look no further than the many cartels that have been erected: oil, telecom, healthcare, energy, and of course banking & finance. These industries are held together by the government and the laws are written to keep competitors out at every scale.
  - dereg 15y ago
    You've nailed it. I disagree, however, with your labeling that as "conventional capitalism". That's crony capitalism, and always has been. As they say, capitalists hate capitalism.
  - mseebach 15y ago
    My point is that pointing the anger at corporations without equally blaming government won't fix anything.
ddw 15y ago

Swizec 15y ago

The thing that bothers me most about the #OWS movement is that it isn't the 99% protesting against the 1%. It's the 10% protesting against the 1%. In principle I agree with the movement, hell, I will always support anyone wanting to stick it to the man. But I wonder how many realize that their freedom and ability to have this opinion is built on the breaking backs of pretty much most of the world?

pohl 15y ago
The 10%, really? Wouldn't that be in the neighborhood of 130k? http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/09/us-household-income http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/09/us-househo...
- fr0sty 15y ago
  I believe the GP was speaking globally. There are probably a billion people who would love to be poor in america.
Permit 15y ago
I'm of the exact same opinion, but I'd wager it's even less than 10%. According to http://www.globalrichlist.com/ http://www.globalrichlist.com/ if you make over $50,000 you're part of the wealthiest 1% in the world. It's a fact that's largely glossed over. I can relate to many of the concerns of the OWS movement (corporate political donations, loose banking regulations), but there's a lot of problems with the movement as well.
blatherard 15y ago
I've read variants of the point that the protesters are "rich" by a global standard. It's an interesting observation, but I don't see how it should change the protesters actions or positions or mine as a mostly-supporter. I'd compare this to the civil rights movement. There were plenty of privileged whites who protested segregation in the US. You could have then reasonably argued that they were privileged because the US systematically enslaved and then repressed blacks. And I would say to this, "So what?" They were protesting something they saw as a problem, on the basis of their shared humanity.

adnam 15y ago

Are union dues that much? I pay around 10€/month.

norswap 15y ago

"Whether it be the tea party on the right or the #OWS on the left, the citizens of the US are clamoring for change." The tea party that cheers execution ? Somehow I don't think they'll change things for the best.

mseebach 15y ago
If you judge the entire tea party movement by a riled up audience acting stupid at a debate, you're missing an important point (the exact one being made in the last nine words of the quoted sentence). Also, if you're being consistent, any show of idiocy from OWS protesters (you can start with the Lyndon LaRouche bunch) should lead you to discount that entire movement, too.

Mz 15y ago

I'd like to do what I can do to help make sure that change is intelligent progressive change taking us forward to a new prosperity, not backward into a false hope for a time that has passed and is not coming back. And I'm wondering if the #OWS movement is interested in that conversation. My assumption would be "not". Light one small candle rather than curse the dark. Talk with the people who will discuss it, regardless of their affiliation (with #OWS or not). Dark times are a time when the future gestates. Decide what you want born of it and become the (gentle) midwife to it's (probably bloody) birth. Peace.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]