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U.S. nursing salaries relative to average U.S. wages are above the OECD average: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/health_glance-2017-58-en/images/images/grap

U.S. nursing salaries relative to average U.S. wages are above the OECD average: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/health_glance-2017-58-en/images/images/graphics/g8-16.png https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/health_glance-2017-58-en... So pay isn't the problem. The U.S. is also above the OECD average for the number of nurses per 1000 population: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334515420/figure/fig1/AS:825901197570048@1573921598162/Number-of-practicing-nurses-per-1000-population-2016-and-change-2000-2016-in-OECD.png https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334515420/figure/fi... So staffing isn't the problem either. The U.S. is below the OECD average for the number of doctors per 1000 population: https://www.nurses.co.uk/Images/Blog/media/ddad9fa9-b06d-43dd-9afe-87261b3e0c61.jpg https://www.nurses.co.uk/Images/Blog/media/ddad9fa9-b06d-43d... If nurses could work a regular 40 hours a week and be paid more, as they would like, the additional money and staffing need to come from somewhere. In the United States, we've decided that private hospitals could have the right to exist. Most nurses are thus beholden to a free market. So the question is why other hospitals aren't trying to poach nurses with better wages and schedules. The reason may be that the supply of nurses remains large enough that hospitals don't feel pressured to make these concessions. The business model of hospitals is also drastically different from that of, e.g., tech companies. Tech companies can afford to pay their employees outrageous salaries because it is possible for one software engineer to create a product that will generate $100M in revenue. A nurse's labor has a cap on how much economic value it can generate. Hence why nursing salaries are constrained.

JaimeThompson 4y ago
>So staffing isn't the problem either. You don't have enough data to determine that as you are assuming that the staffing levels should be the same between countries when due to things like a huge push to increase profits, more paperwork, and other such things they can be drastically different.
shadowofneptune 4y ago
From such a high level, staffing may not seem like a problem. When it comes to the hospital floor level, staffing's been a big issue these last two years. Keep in mind that the common 12 hour shift for a nurse came about because of 70s staff shortages.
MisterBastahrd 4y ago
? Most nurses work three 12 hour shifts and are paid for 40. It's so prevalent that a lot of them will pick up an extra shift or two at an entirely different hospital.
chrisseaton 4y ago
> U.S. nursing salaries relative to average U.S. wages are above the OECD ... So pay isn't the problem Do you think when someone evaluates if they're paid enough they're thinking 'what is my income relative to what someone else's income is in Belgium relative to other people in Belgium?'
woodruffw 4y ago
These numbers don't necessarily tell the full story, since "nurse" isn't necessarily a fungible title across the OECD: nursing requirements and qualifications vary by country, as do the job's obligations. This is probably particularly true during the last two years, as nurses (everywhere, but particularly in areas that have refused vaccination) have assumed greater daily responsibilities.
kemayo 4y ago
It sounds like your last statistic means that U.S. nurses need to do more work than their counterparts in other countries (to make up for a lack of doctors), which suggests that pay and staffing might well be the problem...
manuelabeledo 4y ago
Comparing the US with OECD isn't proof that pay or staffing aren't part of the problem. Nurses can be underpaid, and still earn more than their peers in other countries. Also, it looks like the outrageous costs of healthcare in the US don't correlate at all with nurses' wages. If I were a nurse, I would feel demoralised if I was doing a lot of the hard work, yet administrators and middlemen still get the most money.
Ensorceled 4y ago
Canadian nurses are also leaving the profession in droves for many of the same reasons ... so this might be a universal problem.
fnordpiglet 4y ago
They do detail what the nurses themselves say are the problems in the article. I’m not sure I see a reason to doubt their reasons. They didn’t identify a shortage of doctors but rather a shortage of low skilled workers whose jobs they’re having to pick up in addition. Also while the population ratios might be in their favor, apparently the patient to nurse ratios aren’t. Even if they’re better than most of the world that doesn’t mean they’re necessarily happy - when you’re unhappy telling someone that there’s someone worse off doesn’t improve their situation.
krisoft 4y ago
> So pay isn't the problem. Or pay is a problem elsewhere too.

JaimeThompson 4y ago

>So staffing isn't the problem either. You don't have enough data to determine that as you are assuming that the staffing levels should be the same between countries when due to things like a huge push to increase profits, more paperwork, and other such things they can be drastically different.

shadowofneptune 4y ago

From such a high level, staffing may not seem like a problem. When it comes to the hospital floor level, staffing's been a big issue these last two years. Keep in mind that the common 12 hour shift for a nurse came about because of 70s staff shortages.

MisterBastahrd 4y ago

? Most nurses work three 12 hour shifts and are paid for 40. It's so prevalent that a lot of them will pick up an extra shift or two at an entirely different hospital.

chrisseaton 4y ago

> U.S. nursing salaries relative to average U.S. wages are above the OECD ... So pay isn't the problem Do you think when someone evaluates if they're paid enough they're thinking 'what is my income relative to what someone else's income is in Belgium relative to other people in Belgium?'

woodruffw 4y ago

These numbers don't necessarily tell the full story, since "nurse" isn't necessarily a fungible title across the OECD: nursing requirements and qualifications vary by country, as do the job's obligations. This is probably particularly true during the last two years, as nurses (everywhere, but particularly in areas that have refused vaccination) have assumed greater daily responsibilities.

kemayo 4y ago

It sounds like your last statistic means that U.S. nurses need to do more work than their counterparts in other countries (to make up for a lack of doctors), which suggests that pay and staffing might well be the problem...

manuelabeledo 4y ago

Comparing the US with OECD isn't proof that pay or staffing aren't part of the problem. Nurses can be underpaid, and still earn more than their peers in other countries. Also, it looks like the outrageous costs of healthcare in the US don't correlate at all with nurses' wages. If I were a nurse, I would feel demoralised if I was doing a lot of the hard work, yet administrators and middlemen still get the most money.

Ensorceled 4y ago

Canadian nurses are also leaving the profession in droves for many of the same reasons ... so this might be a universal problem.

fnordpiglet 4y ago

They do detail what the nurses themselves say are the problems in the article. I’m not sure I see a reason to doubt their reasons. They didn’t identify a shortage of doctors but rather a shortage of low skilled workers whose jobs they’re having to pick up in addition. Also while the population ratios might be in their favor, apparently the patient to nurse ratios aren’t. Even if they’re better than most of the world that doesn’t mean they’re necessarily happy - when you’re unhappy telling someone that there’s someone worse off doesn’t improve their situation.

krisoft 4y ago

> So pay isn't the problem. Or pay is a problem elsewhere too.