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Poorer countries have every motivation to move away from colonial currencies that are inherently inflationary and out of their control, into a deflationary curr

Poorer countries have every motivation to move away from colonial currencies that are inherently inflationary and out of their control, into a deflationary currency like bitcoin that has a well-known limited supply and is controlled by no one. They have everything to gain and nothing to lose from such an asymmetric bet.

hiq 4y ago
> controlled by no one What about market manipulations? > They have everything to gain and nothing to lose from such an asymmetric bet. Not sure how you pass the volatility under the rug to conclude that they have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
kspacewalk2 4y ago
Why on earth would any country, rich or poor, want a deflationary currency outside its control? "Controlled by no one" is not a feature for governments (or mature financial systems), it's a bug. This being CAR (and this being bitcoin), it's more likely a story of using a high tech tool to hide proceeds of low-tech plundering of a poor African nation's abundant natural resources.
- bitcoin_anon 4y ago
  “Controlled by another country” is a worse bug than “Controlled by no one”.
  - kspacewalk2 4y ago
    It is in fact not a bug but a critical, show-stopping feature. I will never denominate a contract in units of a speculative virtual scheme with no one at the (very technologically deficient) wheel.
  - reedjosh 4y ago
    I'd say it's a feature. Particularly if you think the government of CAR to be corrupt. I personally think governments are all based on the fallacy that a group of people can have rights that individuals can't. So, for me it's 100% feature.
- reedjosh 4y ago
  > tool to hide proceeds of low-tech plundering Maybe, but since it's an open ledger wouldn't it be more likely to bring transparency to the country's operations? If you pay taxes in bitcoin to the country, then you can track where that goes overtime unless the country exchanges it to another currency or moves it through a whirlpool or similar. Both operations of which have a cost. I could see a website being setup to collect tax payment transactions such that tracking the government's expenditure would actually become quite simple. Obviously, the citizens of CAR may not be up to the task, but it's completely possible technically.
  - kspacewalk2 4y ago
    CAR is partly run by an incompetent dictatorship, partly by a Russian private military firm that's really into massacres and diamond mining. That should tell you all you need to know about the likelihood of open ledgers bringing transparency to the country's operations.
- emptysongglass 4y ago
  Why on earth would any citizen want an inflationary currency outside their control that actively devalues their savings as intended?
  - thaway2839 4y ago
    Because deflation kills economies while controlled inflation is necessary to have an economy. A deflationary currency means you are better off keeping your money under a mattress than using it (either as an investment or an expense). Which means that people wanting to acquire machinery to improve their farm output, someone wanting to setup a store, or someone else wanting to do something productive with their labor will find it harder to get the funding they need.
    - emptysongglass 4y ago
      > A deflationary currency means you are better off keeping your money under a mattress than using it (either as an investment or an expense). People still need to eat and will spend to eat. You can observe this even with people who wholly live their lives on BTC and will go out of their way to avoid any other currency. The Amnish farmer will continue to plow their fields. I am not a crypto-maxi but I do believe there is a grain of truth to the supposition that inflationary economies produce vast waste as we spend ourselves away on empty desires that make us sick. We are spellbound to a system that wrings from us all life day by day as we toil on bullshit to sustain bullshit.
      - robonerd 4y ago
        > I am not a crypto-maxi but I do believe there is a grain of truth to the supposition that inflationary economies produce vast waste as we spend ourselves away on empty desires that make us sick. I'm no ecofascist, but this seems very evident when you juxtapose economic arguments for the necessity of keeping population growth and consumption trends positive, with ecological arguments about the harm our rampant consumption and population growth does to the environment. The economic arguments for continued growth seem paperclip maximizey.
    - 4y ago
- evronm 4y ago
  > Why on earth would any country, rich or poor, want a deflationary currency outside its control? No government would want such a thing if given a choice. However, when a country's fiat currency becomes worthless, the choice is a different one. > "Controlled by no one" is not a feature for governments (or mature financial systems), it's a bug. As far as governments are concerned, that is absolutely correct. However, given the choice between a currency nobody controls and one controlled by another government, the former is clearly less onerous.
  - azinman2 4y ago
    They controlled their own currency before. It’s their choice to peg it’s value or not. To eliminate the ability to print money or do any other kind of intervention is like cutting off your legs for no reason. It seems to me that they’re simply doing this a) as a stunt, and b) as a way to get around remittance fees. Except accepting bitcoin means you have a current with no stability, no recourse when anything goes wrong, and one that thru deflation will only make everything more expensive over time but favor the initially rich.
    - gbersac 4y ago
      Money is trust. For a government to print money, he need people and worldwild financial institutions to trust the government. I don't think anyone trust the CAR government, so they can't print money.
      - kspacewalk2 4y ago
        There are in fact poor countries with competent central bankers, so the task of making a stable fiat currency is not as insurmountable as "become rich first".
      - azinman2 4y ago
        So what money do they use?
  - kspacewalk2 4y ago
RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
> and is controlled by no one If China or the US really wanted to control Bitcoin, how long do you think it would really take them to do so just by investing in Bitcoin mining? The US has literally spent trillions of dollars making and keeping the US dollar the reserve currency of the world. If Bitcoin ever rose to the level where it was a serious threat for US control, I have no doubt that they could easily crash Bitcoin as a viable currency.
- bitcoin_anon 4y ago
  Your proposed threat to Bitcoin only makes it stronger. If more resources are invested into mining, the network gets stronger. Meanwhile, other countries will increase their investment as well. It’s an arms race that doesn’t lead to people dying.
  - JetSpiegel 4y ago
    > Your proposed threat to Bitcoin only makes it stronger. Until the Fed are 51% strong, then it gets weak again.
dahfizz 4y ago
They have nothing to lose by betting their economy on one of the most volatile currencies on earth?
solatic 4y ago
Foreign exchange doesn't work like that. If you have a small economy, and you want to boost local production, you intentionally want to print more of the local currency, have higher inflation, and thus make your currency cheaper compared to foreign currency. This makes your exports cheaper for other countries to buy, thus boosting demand and exports, making the country wealthier. Literally the biggest economic problem the US had with China is that China kept its currency devalued for so long, thus making Chinese products cheaper for export markets, specifically for China to overcome the effects of Japanese and Western imperialism and build a large, developed domestic market. And they succeeded.
- 5822130027 4y ago
brnt 4y ago
Bitcoins not under anyone's control? Good one!

hiq 4y ago

> controlled by no one What about market manipulations? > They have everything to gain and nothing to lose from such an asymmetric bet. Not sure how you pass the volatility under the rug to conclude that they have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

kspacewalk2 4y ago

Why on earth would any country, rich or poor, want a deflationary currency outside its control? "Controlled by no one" is not a feature for governments (or mature financial systems), it's a bug. This being CAR (and this being bitcoin), it's more likely a story of using a high tech tool to hide proceeds of low-tech plundering of a poor African nation's abundant natural resources.

bitcoin_anon 4y ago
“Controlled by another country” is a worse bug than “Controlled by no one”.
- kspacewalk2 4y ago
  It is in fact not a bug but a critical, show-stopping feature. I will never denominate a contract in units of a speculative virtual scheme with no one at the (very technologically deficient) wheel.
- reedjosh 4y ago
  I'd say it's a feature. Particularly if you think the government of CAR to be corrupt. I personally think governments are all based on the fallacy that a group of people can have rights that individuals can't. So, for me it's 100% feature.
reedjosh 4y ago
> tool to hide proceeds of low-tech plundering Maybe, but since it's an open ledger wouldn't it be more likely to bring transparency to the country's operations? If you pay taxes in bitcoin to the country, then you can track where that goes overtime unless the country exchanges it to another currency or moves it through a whirlpool or similar. Both operations of which have a cost. I could see a website being setup to collect tax payment transactions such that tracking the government's expenditure would actually become quite simple. Obviously, the citizens of CAR may not be up to the task, but it's completely possible technically.
- kspacewalk2 4y ago
  CAR is partly run by an incompetent dictatorship, partly by a Russian private military firm that's really into massacres and diamond mining. That should tell you all you need to know about the likelihood of open ledgers bringing transparency to the country's operations.
emptysongglass 4y ago
Why on earth would any citizen want an inflationary currency outside their control that actively devalues their savings as intended?
- thaway2839 4y ago
  Because deflation kills economies while controlled inflation is necessary to have an economy. A deflationary currency means you are better off keeping your money under a mattress than using it (either as an investment or an expense). Which means that people wanting to acquire machinery to improve their farm output, someone wanting to setup a store, or someone else wanting to do something productive with their labor will find it harder to get the funding they need.
  - emptysongglass 4y ago
    > A deflationary currency means you are better off keeping your money under a mattress than using it (either as an investment or an expense). People still need to eat and will spend to eat. You can observe this even with people who wholly live their lives on BTC and will go out of their way to avoid any other currency. The Amnish farmer will continue to plow their fields. I am not a crypto-maxi but I do believe there is a grain of truth to the supposition that inflationary economies produce vast waste as we spend ourselves away on empty desires that make us sick. We are spellbound to a system that wrings from us all life day by day as we toil on bullshit to sustain bullshit.
    - robonerd 4y ago
      > I am not a crypto-maxi but I do believe there is a grain of truth to the supposition that inflationary economies produce vast waste as we spend ourselves away on empty desires that make us sick. I'm no ecofascist, but this seems very evident when you juxtapose economic arguments for the necessity of keeping population growth and consumption trends positive, with ecological arguments about the harm our rampant consumption and population growth does to the environment. The economic arguments for continued growth seem paperclip maximizey.
  - 4y ago
evronm 4y ago
> Why on earth would any country, rich or poor, want a deflationary currency outside its control? No government would want such a thing if given a choice. However, when a country's fiat currency becomes worthless, the choice is a different one. > "Controlled by no one" is not a feature for governments (or mature financial systems), it's a bug. As far as governments are concerned, that is absolutely correct. However, given the choice between a currency nobody controls and one controlled by another government, the former is clearly less onerous.
- azinman2 4y ago
  They controlled their own currency before. It’s their choice to peg it’s value or not. To eliminate the ability to print money or do any other kind of intervention is like cutting off your legs for no reason. It seems to me that they’re simply doing this a) as a stunt, and b) as a way to get around remittance fees. Except accepting bitcoin means you have a current with no stability, no recourse when anything goes wrong, and one that thru deflation will only make everything more expensive over time but favor the initially rich.
  - gbersac 4y ago
    Money is trust. For a government to print money, he need people and worldwild financial institutions to trust the government. I don't think anyone trust the CAR government, so they can't print money.
    - kspacewalk2 4y ago
      There are in fact poor countries with competent central bankers, so the task of making a stable fiat currency is not as insurmountable as "become rich first".
    - azinman2 4y ago
      So what money do they use?
- kspacewalk2 4y ago

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago

> and is controlled by no one If China or the US really wanted to control Bitcoin, how long do you think it would really take them to do so just by investing in Bitcoin mining? The US has literally spent trillions of dollars making and keeping the US dollar the reserve currency of the world. If Bitcoin ever rose to the level where it was a serious threat for US control, I have no doubt that they could easily crash Bitcoin as a viable currency.

bitcoin_anon 4y ago
Your proposed threat to Bitcoin only makes it stronger. If more resources are invested into mining, the network gets stronger. Meanwhile, other countries will increase their investment as well. It’s an arms race that doesn’t lead to people dying.
- JetSpiegel 4y ago
  > Your proposed threat to Bitcoin only makes it stronger. Until the Fed are 51% strong, then it gets weak again.

dahfizz 4y ago

They have nothing to lose by betting their economy on one of the most volatile currencies on earth?

solatic 4y ago

Foreign exchange doesn't work like that. If you have a small economy, and you want to boost local production, you intentionally want to print more of the local currency, have higher inflation, and thus make your currency cheaper compared to foreign currency. This makes your exports cheaper for other countries to buy, thus boosting demand and exports, making the country wealthier. Literally the biggest economic problem the US had with China is that China kept its currency devalued for so long, thus making Chinese products cheaper for export markets, specifically for China to overcome the effects of Japanese and Western imperialism and build a large, developed domestic market. And they succeeded.

5822130027 4y ago

brnt 4y ago

Bitcoins not under anyone's control? Good one!