4 ms·

I care most about my car, house etc in the whole world too. The risk I guess is that being informed might make me want to overrule the experts. On a population

I care most about my car, house etc in the whole world too. The risk I guess is that being informed might make me want to overrule the experts. On a population scale the advice might be bad. Depends on how good the experts are.

vasco 5y ago
So your opinion is that if research tells you that you should overrule a doctor's opinion, the right course of action is to not bring it up, not do the research in the first place, because the doctor "knows better"? In my opinion if you disagree or have doubts about treatment you should definitely bring those up with your doctor, see what they say about your reservations, and either get convinced or find some second opinion to increase trust in the expert opinion vs your own research. One thing I've learned from living with a doctor for several years is that an informed curious person on a very specific subject knows more than a doctor that has to know about a million things and probably isn't up on medical research papers. Your duty should be to bring up that research to your doctor and bring them up to speed. Once they read those they'll understand them better than you, but before... not a given. Discussion is always better than no discussion. Engineers get thing wrong all the time, but code reviews help. You should help your doctor to minimize mistakes rather than just accepting everything. Not only that, medical history is often wrong. I've often corrected previous notes to a new doctor - learning only then that the previous one hadn't actually understood what I had shared. There's a million ways in which your active involvement and care improve your outcomes. Another time I asked about several aberrations in an x-ray after a surgery, and the doctor admitted there had been a slight mistake during the surgery that chipped a bone, but that it wouldn't have negative consequences. He didn't bring it up until I asked.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ryandrake 5y ago
  Everyone's using that word in this thread: research. Watching a bunch of YouTube videos is not research. Browsing medical web sites and choosing "treatments" that are cleverly and subtly marketed to you is not research. Matching your symptoms with a TV ad is not research. We saw what two years of "dO yOuR oWn ReSeArCh!" left us with during a deadly pandemic. We're all dunking on doctors in this thread, but look at it from their perspective: They're probably sick and tired of patients coming in to their office saying "The TV told me: Ask your doctor about Provalanix!" And patients who googled "How to get your doctor to proscribe SSRI medication". And patients who insist they should go with their aunt's Healing Crystal Therapy. And patients who asked HN for medical advice[1] !! If you want to really do research, go get a medical degree and then do actual research in an actual academic institution. Yes, have a discussion with your doctor. Yes, ask him or her if you have concerns. Maybe even get a second opinion (from another real doctor). But don't think your keyboard is going to bring you to The Truth That Doctors Dont Want You To Know. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31098263 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31098263 EDIT: Right, the comment is not directed in particular towards its immediate parent, more in general at the entire thread.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - vasco 5y ago
    Maybe you should reply to those comments instead. I mentioned: - reading medical research papers - bringing detailed information about your symptoms - mentioning things you ruled out and things you've tried - having a good understanding of your medical history I didn't mention ads on tv, youtube videos or HN comments. Perhaps you should reserve your outrage for the proper place.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    The internet with the latest and most information available to mankind can be ignored? If someone gets information from video format they should be ignored? If someone came in and wanted to have a conversation about a medical product they recently heard about they shouldn't go to their doctor with questions? Sounds like someone is close to retirement or leaving the field with that attitude. Those are all valid concerns the general public may have. That's your job as a gp (to schedule appointments while patients tell you things you suggest your ideas).
  - wtetzner 5y ago
    Who said anything about YouTube or TV ads? PubMed is a great resource. Of course, it takes a lot of effort to really get something useful from those papers, since you need to try to understand the experiment they did, and not just read the conclusion (scientists have biases as well, and will often read what they want into the results). But depending on how bad your condition is, it could absolutely be worth the time. > But don't think your keyboard is going to bring you to The Truth That Doctors Dont Want You To Know. Neither do I. I expect instead it might bring you to The Truth That Doctors Don't Know.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  It easier to judge if someone sings good than to sing your self. I get your point.
toolz 5y ago
Sure, but if a professional breaks your car or house irreparably then they have insurance to buy you something equivalent or better. If a doctor breaks your body irreparably, it would seem there's a high probability that you have no recourse other than in rare situations you might get a settlement for some cash. Cash that won't fix your problem. My main point is that the risks aren't comparable at all.
wtetzner 5y ago
> The risk I guess is that being informed might make me want to overrule the experts. On a population scale the advice might be bad. Depends on how good the experts are. My experience with "experts" has been almost universally underwhelming. The only notable exceptions I've had is with a couple of veterinarians.

vasco 5y ago

So your opinion is that if research tells you that you should overrule a doctor's opinion, the right course of action is to not bring it up, not do the research in the first place, because the doctor "knows better"? In my opinion if you disagree or have doubts about treatment you should definitely bring those up with your doctor, see what they say about your reservations, and either get convinced or find some second opinion to increase trust in the expert opinion vs your own research. One thing I've learned from living with a doctor for several years is that an informed curious person on a very specific subject knows more than a doctor that has to know about a million things and probably isn't up on medical research papers. Your duty should be to bring up that research to your doctor and bring them up to speed. Once they read those they'll understand them better than you, but before... not a given. Discussion is always better than no discussion. Engineers get thing wrong all the time, but code reviews help. You should help your doctor to minimize mistakes rather than just accepting everything. Not only that, medical history is often wrong. I've often corrected previous notes to a new doctor - learning only then that the previous one hadn't actually understood what I had shared. There's a million ways in which your active involvement and care improve your outcomes. Another time I asked about several aberrations in an x-ray after a surgery, and the doctor admitted there had been a slight mistake during the surgery that chipped a bone, but that it wouldn't have negative consequences. He didn't bring it up until I asked.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ryandrake 5y ago
Everyone's using that word in this thread: research. Watching a bunch of YouTube videos is not research. Browsing medical web sites and choosing "treatments" that are cleverly and subtly marketed to you is not research. Matching your symptoms with a TV ad is not research. We saw what two years of "dO yOuR oWn ReSeArCh!" left us with during a deadly pandemic. We're all dunking on doctors in this thread, but look at it from their perspective: They're probably sick and tired of patients coming in to their office saying "The TV told me: Ask your doctor about Provalanix!" And patients who googled "How to get your doctor to proscribe SSRI medication". And patients who insist they should go with their aunt's Healing Crystal Therapy. And patients who asked HN for medical advice[1] !! If you want to really do research, go get a medical degree and then do actual research in an actual academic institution. Yes, have a discussion with your doctor. Yes, ask him or her if you have concerns. Maybe even get a second opinion (from another real doctor). But don't think your keyboard is going to bring you to The Truth That Doctors Dont Want You To Know. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31098263 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31098263 EDIT: Right, the comment is not directed in particular towards its immediate parent, more in general at the entire thread.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- vasco 5y ago
  Maybe you should reply to those comments instead. I mentioned: - reading medical research papers - bringing detailed information about your symptoms - mentioning things you ruled out and things you've tried - having a good understanding of your medical history I didn't mention ads on tv, youtube videos or HN comments. Perhaps you should reserve your outrage for the proper place.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  The internet with the latest and most information available to mankind can be ignored? If someone gets information from video format they should be ignored? If someone came in and wanted to have a conversation about a medical product they recently heard about they shouldn't go to their doctor with questions? Sounds like someone is close to retirement or leaving the field with that attitude. Those are all valid concerns the general public may have. That's your job as a gp (to schedule appointments while patients tell you things you suggest your ideas).
- wtetzner 5y ago
  Who said anything about YouTube or TV ads? PubMed is a great resource. Of course, it takes a lot of effort to really get something useful from those papers, since you need to try to understand the experiment they did, and not just read the conclusion (scientists have biases as well, and will often read what they want into the results). But depending on how bad your condition is, it could absolutely be worth the time. > But don't think your keyboard is going to bring you to The Truth That Doctors Dont Want You To Know. Neither do I. I expect instead it might bring you to The Truth That Doctors Don't Know.
rightbyte 5y ago
It easier to judge if someone sings good than to sing your self. I get your point.

toolz 5y ago

Sure, but if a professional breaks your car or house irreparably then they have insurance to buy you something equivalent or better. If a doctor breaks your body irreparably, it would seem there's a high probability that you have no recourse other than in rare situations you might get a settlement for some cash. Cash that won't fix your problem. My main point is that the risks aren't comparable at all.

wtetzner 5y ago

> The risk I guess is that being informed might make me want to overrule the experts. On a population scale the advice might be bad. Depends on how good the experts are. My experience with "experts" has been almost universally underwhelming. The only notable exceptions I've had is with a couple of veterinarians.