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Is this actually legal tender as in every merchant in the country is legally required to transact in bitcoin? Or is this a marketing play where most merchants c

by TimPC 4y ago

Is this actually legal tender as in every merchant in the country is legally required to transact in bitcoin? Or is this a marketing play where most merchants continue to not transact in bitcoin and the country calls bitcoin legal tender?

rsynnott 4y ago
That's not what legal tender means. Legal tender is something which must be accepted for settlement of _debts_. For instance, in the UK, any coin with a face value of one pound or more is legal tender in unlimited amount, but no-one is going to allow you to buy a car with a big bag of pound coins.
- _3u10 4y ago
  But you can pay off your taxes with a big bag of coins. Pay off the car loan with a big bag of coins etc.
  - smnrchrds 4y ago
    It depends on the country. In Canada, there is a limit on the quantity of coins, above which they are not legal tender. (2) A tender of payment in coins referred to in subsection (1) is a legal tender for no more than the following amounts for the following denominations of coins: (a) forty dollars if the denomination is two dollars or greater but does not exceed ten dollars; (b) twenty-five dollars if the denomination is one dollar; (c) ten dollars if the denomination is ten cents or greater but less than one dollar; (d) five dollars if the denomination is five cents; and (e) twenty-five cents if the denomination is one cent.* https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-52/page-1.html#h-142377 https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-52/page-1.html#h-...
    - tastyfreeze 4y ago
      Hah, that is really interesting. I suspect this is to stop people from paying with a large quantity of coins to be an ass. Any idea how that plays out when trying to change bags of coins at a bank? coin-op vendor: I would like to deposit all of my bags of coins. bank: Sorry sir, your money is no good here unless you break it into smaller quantities. I knew a contract security guard that worked for a laundromat. They paid him in bags of quarters.
      - smnrchrds 4y ago
        > Any idea how that plays out when trying to change bags of coins at a bank? I am not sure. I know they accept rolled coins for deposit at least from business customers. But I don't know what is the minimum legally required service level vis-à-vis coins and what is the customary service level banks actual offer right now. I remember TD having coin deposit machines that were free for TD customers to use but deducted a fee from non-customers, but they discontinued the service a couple of years ago. These days most people use third-party machines like this, which deduct a fee: https://www.coinstar.ca/ https://www.coinstar.ca/
- s_dev 4y ago
  It's even more complicated and nuanced than simply using locally acquired notes either unfortunately. To my own shock Northern Irish pounds and Scottish pounds aren't even accepted in England as legal tender.
  - ranko 4y ago
    Scottish notes are not even legal tender in Scotland. This isn't as bad as it sounds, in fact, as many things (credit cards, for example) are not legal tender but are widely accepted in shops etc. More at https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/what-is-legal-tender https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/what-is-legal-...
  - Chris2048 4y ago
    They are, they are just treated with suspicion.
    - tialaramex 4y ago
      They aren't legal tender. It's true that for practical purposes the fact that (particularly in the South) people are suspicious and won't accept them as payment for goods you want to purchase is much more important, but the topic was legal tender and they are not legal tender. Go look it up.
- tialaramex 4y ago
  Well, they might, as like a PR stunt or something, but yes. It is crucial to understand that legal tender exists in law only to handle the case where a creditor demands payment but is unwilling to accept what the debtor sees as a suitable payment, and it's just not very good even for that purpose. Lots of places do not have a legal tender law, so, in those places if you try to pay a debt and the creditor won't accept your payment, that's a dispute in law, just like it would have been if somebody unexpectedly claims you owe them money and you say you don't. So, why have a special "legal tender" law anyway? "No weird money" is a good rule to live by. Scottish bank notes for example. It doesn't matter that they aren't legal tender anywhere (including Scotland), nor does it matter that they are in some sense worth "the same" as Bank of England notes (since the issuing banks are required to hold on deposit the same quantity). To buy tourist stuff in Edinburgh Airport they'll work just fine. To buy a fish supper in the Highlands, they'll work just fine. If you show one to the guy running the Chinese in my port city on the South Coast of England, he won't know what it is, and so understandably he doesn't want to exchange your weird money for his delicious food. No Weird Money.
deleted 4y ago
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by TimPC 4y ago

rsynnott 4y ago

That's not what legal tender means. Legal tender is something which must be accepted for settlement of _debts_. For instance, in the UK, any coin with a face value of one pound or more is legal tender in unlimited amount, but no-one is going to allow you to buy a car with a big bag of pound coins.

_3u10 4y ago
But you can pay off your taxes with a big bag of coins. Pay off the car loan with a big bag of coins etc.
- smnrchrds 4y ago
  It depends on the country. In Canada, there is a limit on the quantity of coins, above which they are not legal tender. (2) A tender of payment in coins referred to in subsection (1) is a legal tender for no more than the following amounts for the following denominations of coins: (a) forty dollars if the denomination is two dollars or greater but does not exceed ten dollars; (b) twenty-five dollars if the denomination is one dollar; (c) ten dollars if the denomination is ten cents or greater but less than one dollar; (d) five dollars if the denomination is five cents; and (e) twenty-five cents if the denomination is one cent.* https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-52/page-1.html#h-142377 https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-52/page-1.html#h-...
  - tastyfreeze 4y ago
    Hah, that is really interesting. I suspect this is to stop people from paying with a large quantity of coins to be an ass. Any idea how that plays out when trying to change bags of coins at a bank? coin-op vendor: I would like to deposit all of my bags of coins. bank: Sorry sir, your money is no good here unless you break it into smaller quantities. I knew a contract security guard that worked for a laundromat. They paid him in bags of quarters.
    - smnrchrds 4y ago
      > Any idea how that plays out when trying to change bags of coins at a bank? I am not sure. I know they accept rolled coins for deposit at least from business customers. But I don't know what is the minimum legally required service level vis-à-vis coins and what is the customary service level banks actual offer right now. I remember TD having coin deposit machines that were free for TD customers to use but deducted a fee from non-customers, but they discontinued the service a couple of years ago. These days most people use third-party machines like this, which deduct a fee: https://www.coinstar.ca/ https://www.coinstar.ca/
s_dev 4y ago
It's even more complicated and nuanced than simply using locally acquired notes either unfortunately. To my own shock Northern Irish pounds and Scottish pounds aren't even accepted in England as legal tender.
- ranko 4y ago
  Scottish notes are not even legal tender in Scotland. This isn't as bad as it sounds, in fact, as many things (credit cards, for example) are not legal tender but are widely accepted in shops etc. More at https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/what-is-legal-tender https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/what-is-legal-...
- Chris2048 4y ago
  They are, they are just treated with suspicion.
  - tialaramex 4y ago
    They aren't legal tender. It's true that for practical purposes the fact that (particularly in the South) people are suspicious and won't accept them as payment for goods you want to purchase is much more important, but the topic was legal tender and they are not legal tender. Go look it up.
tialaramex 4y ago
Well, they might, as like a PR stunt or something, but yes. It is crucial to understand that legal tender exists in law only to handle the case where a creditor demands payment but is unwilling to accept what the debtor sees as a suitable payment, and it's just not very good even for that purpose. Lots of places do not have a legal tender law, so, in those places if you try to pay a debt and the creditor won't accept your payment, that's a dispute in law, just like it would have been if somebody unexpectedly claims you owe them money and you say you don't. So, why have a special "legal tender" law anyway? "No weird money" is a good rule to live by. Scottish bank notes for example. It doesn't matter that they aren't legal tender anywhere (including Scotland), nor does it matter that they are in some sense worth "the same" as Bank of England notes (since the issuing banks are required to hold on deposit the same quantity). To buy tourist stuff in Edinburgh Airport they'll work just fine. To buy a fish supper in the Highlands, they'll work just fine. If you show one to the guy running the Chinese in my port city on the South Coast of England, he won't know what it is, and so understandably he doesn't want to exchange your weird money for his delicious food. No Weird Money.

deleted 4y ago

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