4 ms·

The Australian legal system has zero concept of punitive damages. You can only have repertory (recuperative) damages. There are no "monetary payments to deter

by urthor 4y ago

The Australian legal system has zero concept of punitive damages. You can only have repertory (recuperative) damages. There are no "monetary payments to deter future crime" in Australian civil law. Digest that one for a second.

zensavona 4y ago
Meanwhile nonviolent drug offenders landing in prison 5x'd between 2005-2013 in VIC, AU. Conveniently coinciding with the percentage of prisoners being held in private prisons increased substantially.
- nomilk 4y ago
  I hadn't realised Australia has private prisons. Seems to have at least 17 (wiki article hasn't been updated in a few years, so could be more): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Private_prisons_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Private_prisons_in_Au...
- chottocharaii 4y ago
  The parent comment is incorrect
throwawaylinux 4y ago
> There are no "monetary payments to deter future crime" in Australian civil law. I might be missing something but it seems like a good idea that a civil court is unable to punish people after deciding it is necessary to encourage them not to break a criminal law in future. Australia does presumably have punitive fines and other punishments that are for deterrence in criminal punishments?
- chottocharaii 4y ago
  The parent comment is completely incorrect as to their understanding of Australian law.
- vkou 4y ago
  > I might be missing something but it seems like a good idea that a civil court is unable to punish people after deciding it is necessary to encourage them not to break a criminal law in future. If I can steal $5 from you, and the worst thing that happens if I get caught is that I have to give the $5 back, what sort of incentive do you think that creates?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwawaylinux 4y ago
    > If I can steal $5 from you, and the worst thing that happens if I get caught is that I have to give the $5 back, what sort of incentive do you think that creates? Theft is a criminal matter, and there are punitive remedies for crimes.
    - urthor 4y ago
      These are civil, white collar crimes. It's the same concept. If a corporation commits a civil crime, the maximum in damages it can repay is the amount of damage it caused, give or take interest.
      - throwawaylinux 4y ago
        > These are civil, white collar crimes. > It's the same concept. If a corporation commits a civil crime, the maximum in damages it can repay is the amount of damage it caused, give or take interest. It sounds like you're just making that up. I found the agency and the page on the regulation being breached: https://www.accc.gov.au/business/business-rights-protections/fines-penalties https://www.accc.gov.au/business/business-rights-protections... The maximum penalties per breach of the ACL including unconscionable conduct, making false or misleading representations, and supplying consumer goods or certain services that do not comply with safety standards or which are banned: For corporations, will be the greater of: * $10,000,000* * 3 times the value of the benefit received, or * 10% of annual turnover in preceding 12 months, if court cannot determine benefit obtained from the offence. The penalty for this particular "civil crime" (if that is actually what it's called), does not talk about repaying damages at all, and it can be 3 times the value of the benefit. So what's the basis for what your seemingly contradictory claims?
2rsf 4y ago
The same in Sweden, no punitive damages
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  True but there are fines which can sometimes be substantial especially for companies.
  - urthor 4y ago
    Repertory fines are rarely enough to deter corporations. They'll simply do the cost/benefit equation on breaking the law. Only criminal charges against corporate officers and punitive damages promotes change.
    - andrepd 4y ago
      >criminal charges against corporate officers Absolutely. The discussion is centered on fines to companies but the other side is personal punishment of the actual physical people who made the decision to break the law.
    - moonchrome 4y ago
      >Only criminal charges against corporate officers and punitive damages promotes change. That's a factual statement without any evidence supporting it. There's plenty of punitive damages against drug abuse and do you see any signs of it working ?
      - urthor 4y ago
        Corporations who have board meetings and shareholders have a very, very different response to criminal charges. Compared to individuals addicted to illegal substances.
        moonchrome 4y ago
        And you're trying to prevent illegal activity that is discussed in board meetings and communicated to shareholders ?
nl 4y ago
This is misleading. In Australia, criminal behaviour can incur fines[1]: > Fines are monetary fines (criminal penalty) imposed by courts in criminal proceedings. Criminal standard of proof is required. The ACCC has pretty significant ability to impose penalties: > The maximum penalties per breach of the ACL [..] maximum penalties for breaches [..] will be the greater of: $10,000,000; or If Court can determine "reasonably attributable" benefit obtained, 3 times that value, or if Court cannot determine benefit, 10% of annual turnover in preceding 12 months. [1] https://www.accc.gov.au/business/business-rights-protections/fines-penalties https://www.accc.gov.au/business/business-rights-protections...
- urthor 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punitive_damages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punitive_damages Not all fines are punitive damages.
  - chottocharaii 4y ago
    Exemplary damages is the Australian legal term of art for damages that are functionally identical to punitive damages.
    - urthor 4y ago
      Well you have to dumb it down for the Americans. The nature of the business though is that they're almost never awarded, except maybe for contempt of court? Certainly not in a significant quantity against a corporation.
      - chottocharaii 4y ago
        it’s different terminology. no need to baselessly insult americans They are awarded in a certain sets of circumstances. Contempt of court is far from the only example substantial sums exemplary damages are certainly capable of being awarded against a corporation on the right set of facts
      - 4y ago
drevil-v2 4y ago
That’s misleading. Australia has very strict and regularly enforced laws about “proceeds of crime” which acts as a deterrent against future crime.
- chottocharaii 4y ago
  Deterrence is a factor in civil infringement contexts also
chottocharaii 4y ago
This is complete nonsense. You’re clearly not an Australian lawyer. Deterrence is regularly a factor in civil infringement cases brought by regulators. In other civil lawsuits, ordinarily damages are strictly ‘compensatory’. However, ‘exemplary’ damages also exist in some circumstances; and functionally identical to punitive damages. https://legalvision.com.au/what-are-exemplary-damages/ https://legalvision.com.au/what-are-exemplary-damages/
zaphirplane 4y ago
Is it me ? There have been a few posts in the last couple of days of people posting inaccurate information with complete confidence
- samhw 4y ago
  > in the last couple of days I have some bad news for you

by urthor 4y ago

zensavona 4y ago

Meanwhile nonviolent drug offenders landing in prison 5x'd between 2005-2013 in VIC, AU. Conveniently coinciding with the percentage of prisoners being held in private prisons increased substantially.

nomilk 4y ago
I hadn't realised Australia has private prisons. Seems to have at least 17 (wiki article hasn't been updated in a few years, so could be more): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Private_prisons_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Private_prisons_in_Au...
chottocharaii 4y ago
The parent comment is incorrect

throwawaylinux 4y ago

> There are no "monetary payments to deter future crime" in Australian civil law. I might be missing something but it seems like a good idea that a civil court is unable to punish people after deciding it is necessary to encourage them not to break a criminal law in future. Australia does presumably have punitive fines and other punishments that are for deterrence in criminal punishments?

chottocharaii 4y ago
The parent comment is completely incorrect as to their understanding of Australian law.
vkou 4y ago
> I might be missing something but it seems like a good idea that a civil court is unable to punish people after deciding it is necessary to encourage them not to break a criminal law in future. If I can steal $5 from you, and the worst thing that happens if I get caught is that I have to give the $5 back, what sort of incentive do you think that creates?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- throwawaylinux 4y ago
  > If I can steal $5 from you, and the worst thing that happens if I get caught is that I have to give the $5 back, what sort of incentive do you think that creates? Theft is a criminal matter, and there are punitive remedies for crimes.
  - urthor 4y ago
    These are civil, white collar crimes. It's the same concept. If a corporation commits a civil crime, the maximum in damages it can repay is the amount of damage it caused, give or take interest.
    - throwawaylinux 4y ago
      > These are civil, white collar crimes. > It's the same concept. If a corporation commits a civil crime, the maximum in damages it can repay is the amount of damage it caused, give or take interest. It sounds like you're just making that up. I found the agency and the page on the regulation being breached: https://www.accc.gov.au/business/business-rights-protections/fines-penalties https://www.accc.gov.au/business/business-rights-protections... The maximum penalties per breach of the ACL including unconscionable conduct, making false or misleading representations, and supplying consumer goods or certain services that do not comply with safety standards or which are banned: For corporations, will be the greater of: * $10,000,000* * 3 times the value of the benefit received, or * 10% of annual turnover in preceding 12 months, if court cannot determine benefit obtained from the offence. The penalty for this particular "civil crime" (if that is actually what it's called), does not talk about repaying damages at all, and it can be 3 times the value of the benefit. So what's the basis for what your seemingly contradictory claims?

2rsf 4y ago

The same in Sweden, no punitive damages

actionfromafar 4y ago
True but there are fines which can sometimes be substantial especially for companies.
- urthor 4y ago
  Repertory fines are rarely enough to deter corporations. They'll simply do the cost/benefit equation on breaking the law. Only criminal charges against corporate officers and punitive damages promotes change.
  - andrepd 4y ago
    >criminal charges against corporate officers Absolutely. The discussion is centered on fines to companies but the other side is personal punishment of the actual physical people who made the decision to break the law.
  - moonchrome 4y ago
    >Only criminal charges against corporate officers and punitive damages promotes change. That's a factual statement without any evidence supporting it. There's plenty of punitive damages against drug abuse and do you see any signs of it working ?
    - urthor 4y ago
      Corporations who have board meetings and shareholders have a very, very different response to criminal charges. Compared to individuals addicted to illegal substances.
      - moonchrome 4y ago
        And you're trying to prevent illegal activity that is discussed in board meetings and communicated to shareholders ?

nl 4y ago

This is misleading. In Australia, criminal behaviour can incur fines[1]: > Fines are monetary fines (criminal penalty) imposed by courts in criminal proceedings. Criminal standard of proof is required. The ACCC has pretty significant ability to impose penalties: > The maximum penalties per breach of the ACL [..] maximum penalties for breaches [..] will be the greater of: $10,000,000; or If Court can determine "reasonably attributable" benefit obtained, 3 times that value, or if Court cannot determine benefit, 10% of annual turnover in preceding 12 months. [1] https://www.accc.gov.au/business/business-rights-protections/fines-penalties https://www.accc.gov.au/business/business-rights-protections...

urthor 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punitive_damages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punitive_damages Not all fines are punitive damages.
- chottocharaii 4y ago
  Exemplary damages is the Australian legal term of art for damages that are functionally identical to punitive damages.
  - urthor 4y ago
    Well you have to dumb it down for the Americans. The nature of the business though is that they're almost never awarded, except maybe for contempt of court? Certainly not in a significant quantity against a corporation.
    - chottocharaii 4y ago
      it’s different terminology. no need to baselessly insult americans They are awarded in a certain sets of circumstances. Contempt of court is far from the only example substantial sums exemplary damages are certainly capable of being awarded against a corporation on the right set of facts
    - 4y ago

drevil-v2 4y ago

That’s misleading. Australia has very strict and regularly enforced laws about “proceeds of crime” which acts as a deterrent against future crime.

chottocharaii 4y ago
Deterrence is a factor in civil infringement contexts also

chottocharaii 4y ago

This is complete nonsense. You’re clearly not an Australian lawyer. Deterrence is regularly a factor in civil infringement cases brought by regulators. In other civil lawsuits, ordinarily damages are strictly ‘compensatory’. However, ‘exemplary’ damages also exist in some circumstances; and functionally identical to punitive damages. https://legalvision.com.au/what-are-exemplary-damages/ https://legalvision.com.au/what-are-exemplary-damages/

zaphirplane 4y ago

Is it me ? There have been a few posts in the last couple of days of people posting inaccurate information with complete confidence

samhw 4y ago
> in the last couple of days I have some bad news for you