4 ms·

Valve made a documentary about pro DOTA 2 players a whopping 8 years ago (it doesn't seem that long ago at all). I bring it up because I remember at some point

Valve made a documentary about pro DOTA 2 players a whopping 8 years ago (it doesn't seem that long ago at all). I bring it up because I remember at some point they mention that your reaction time drastically starts to decrease around the late 20's or so. I'd imagine that may also have something to do with it for fast-paced games at least. Here's the documentary (it's kind of more of a commercial but it's still pretty good if you're interested in esports) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjZYMI1zB9s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjZYMI1zB9s

LewisVerstappen 4y ago
> I bring it up because I remember at some point they mention that your reaction time drastically starts to decrease around the late 20's or so The WaPo article seems to imply that is not true. Also, in Formula 1 reflexes, hand-eye coordination, reaction time, etc. are all extremely important. Despite that, a driver will typically be at their peak in their early-mid 30s.
- justahuman74 4y ago
  It usually takes a long time to get given a good car in formula 1 though, so that can skew thing older. If you give a good driver a great car really really early you get LewisH and MaxV situations
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Also if you get a good car in F1 and give good results you keep the car and it usually stays good or very competitive. On other hand there is lot of value with experience and some patience, if you are mid-line team a experienced driver who can support the team and bring the car back in whole or even with some points race after race is not horrible investment.
Aerroon 4y ago
I think reaction time in games like Dota 2 doesn't actually matter as much. The gap between very good reactions and average to bad reactions is small enough that practiced patterns and better understanding of macro strategies can compensate for it.
- whymauri 4y ago
  After about a decade of data, I think the community/e-sports results in Dota generally show: 1. In some roles and metas, the split second mechanical difference does matter i.e. for carries or mid-lane playmakers under specific metas and specific matchups. Although some metas are less mechanically deep for certain roles -- I know part of the theory for Dendi's decline is that his mechanical skill was overkill when denies in midlane (very timing based mechanic) became less important compared to macrostrategy (meaning that he couldn't just 'out skill' opponents and win the game with an early lead). 2. But, the experience gains from being in competitions for a long time make the older players a great fit for coaching, captain, and support roles. 3. But another factor is less reaction time and more that the late 20s and early 30s players have spouses and more expansive lives beyond the game, so they simply cannot spend the 100+ hours a week perfectly tuning the midlane or hard carry meta where the fundamentals can change really fast. Also, for the most successful players (read: millionaires) they want to enjoy their wealth and do things outside the game.
  - h0h0h0h0111 4y ago
    >3. But another factor is less reaction time and more that the late 20s and early 30s players have spouses and more expansive lives beyond the game, so they simply cannot spend the 100+ hours a week perfectly tuning the midlane or hard carry meta where the fundamentals can change really fast. Also, for the most successful players (read: millionaires) they want to enjoy their wealth and do things outside the game. I think this is the biggest factor in the same way most devs don't stay in the same job for 20 years (particularly the top ones!). Additionally, most games change a lot over their lifespan; what made someone a top player in the early days doesn't necessarily continue to benefit them now, and mindset/skillset changes are not easy to make. Poker is a great example of that: pros from 20 years ago might have experience, but if they're not up-to-date with the cutting edge of theory and solvers, their 'experience' will get them crushed.
- OhSoHumble 4y ago
  I mean, for most player sure but when you're playing against the best players of the world then it's going to be a deciding factor. Otherwise, yeah, you can be Divine/Immortal using game knowledge and have terrible reaction times relative to the greater player base.
Ekaros 4y ago
Reaction time can be compensated with experience and game sense. Also at the very top getting used to pressure and having experienced it when playing the games that matter is big thing.
globular-toast 4y ago
I've always wished we could somehow design a team sport/game that incorporates a wider spectrum of human abilities. Almost all sports/games are about alpha male characteristics: strength, power, speed, agility etc. Wouldn't it be good if we could have a team which included other important human qualities: empathy, slower cerebral thought processes, attention to detail etc. The only "game" I can think of which is close is war.
- kenjackson 4y ago
  Chess is an example I think.
  - globular-toast 4y ago
    Chess is dominated by men and isn't a team sport.

LewisVerstappen 4y ago

> I bring it up because I remember at some point they mention that your reaction time drastically starts to decrease around the late 20's or so The WaPo article seems to imply that is not true. Also, in Formula 1 reflexes, hand-eye coordination, reaction time, etc. are all extremely important. Despite that, a driver will typically be at their peak in their early-mid 30s.

justahuman74 4y ago
It usually takes a long time to get given a good car in formula 1 though, so that can skew thing older. If you give a good driver a great car really really early you get LewisH and MaxV situations
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Also if you get a good car in F1 and give good results you keep the car and it usually stays good or very competitive. On other hand there is lot of value with experience and some patience, if you are mid-line team a experienced driver who can support the team and bring the car back in whole or even with some points race after race is not horrible investment.

Aerroon 4y ago

I think reaction time in games like Dota 2 doesn't actually matter as much. The gap between very good reactions and average to bad reactions is small enough that practiced patterns and better understanding of macro strategies can compensate for it.

whymauri 4y ago
After about a decade of data, I think the community/e-sports results in Dota generally show: 1. In some roles and metas, the split second mechanical difference does matter i.e. for carries or mid-lane playmakers under specific metas and specific matchups. Although some metas are less mechanically deep for certain roles -- I know part of the theory for Dendi's decline is that his mechanical skill was overkill when denies in midlane (very timing based mechanic) became less important compared to macrostrategy (meaning that he couldn't just 'out skill' opponents and win the game with an early lead). 2. But, the experience gains from being in competitions for a long time make the older players a great fit for coaching, captain, and support roles. 3. But another factor is less reaction time and more that the late 20s and early 30s players have spouses and more expansive lives beyond the game, so they simply cannot spend the 100+ hours a week perfectly tuning the midlane or hard carry meta where the fundamentals can change really fast. Also, for the most successful players (read: millionaires) they want to enjoy their wealth and do things outside the game.
- h0h0h0h0111 4y ago
  >3. But another factor is less reaction time and more that the late 20s and early 30s players have spouses and more expansive lives beyond the game, so they simply cannot spend the 100+ hours a week perfectly tuning the midlane or hard carry meta where the fundamentals can change really fast. Also, for the most successful players (read: millionaires) they want to enjoy their wealth and do things outside the game. I think this is the biggest factor in the same way most devs don't stay in the same job for 20 years (particularly the top ones!). Additionally, most games change a lot over their lifespan; what made someone a top player in the early days doesn't necessarily continue to benefit them now, and mindset/skillset changes are not easy to make. Poker is a great example of that: pros from 20 years ago might have experience, but if they're not up-to-date with the cutting edge of theory and solvers, their 'experience' will get them crushed.
OhSoHumble 4y ago
I mean, for most player sure but when you're playing against the best players of the world then it's going to be a deciding factor. Otherwise, yeah, you can be Divine/Immortal using game knowledge and have terrible reaction times relative to the greater player base.

Ekaros 4y ago

Reaction time can be compensated with experience and game sense. Also at the very top getting used to pressure and having experienced it when playing the games that matter is big thing.

globular-toast 4y ago

I've always wished we could somehow design a team sport/game that incorporates a wider spectrum of human abilities. Almost all sports/games are about alpha male characteristics: strength, power, speed, agility etc. Wouldn't it be good if we could have a team which included other important human qualities: empathy, slower cerebral thought processes, attention to detail etc. The only "game" I can think of which is close is war.

kenjackson 4y ago
Chess is an example I think.
- globular-toast 4y ago
  Chess is dominated by men and isn't a team sport.