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I'd be interested in trying out the following idea: How about we don't mandate mathematics and science courses in high school, and especially in early college?

I'd be interested in trying out the following idea: How about we don't mandate mathematics and science courses in high school, and especially in early college? The benefits of this are two-fold. The people who want to pursue other interests are freer to do so. And, more importantly to me as a mathematics graduate student, the people who are interested in math and science can go much much faster, and attain a higher level earlier on. As far as I can tell, most other countries with successful mathematics cultures operate more like this. In my math PhD program, the foreign students almost universally arrived better prepared (more knowledgeable and skilled) than the Americans. I believe the gen-ed requirements and general lack of specialization in American education may have a role in this.

junar 4y ago
> As far as I can tell, most other countries with successful mathematics cultures operate more like this. Which country do you mean? As far as I'm aware, it's the opposite: countries like China and South Korea have math as a required subject on their college entrance exams for all students. The non-STEM students may have fewer requirements, but I'm fairly sure they've still learned more than the average American high school student. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaokao#Reform_of_the_National_College_Entrance_Examination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaokao#Reform_of_the_National_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_Scholastic_Ability_Test#Mathematics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_Scholastic_Ability_Tes... https://medium.com/@yujia_jo/2016-jiangsu-gaokao-national-higher-education-entrance-exam-mathematics-2beefb93cec7 https://medium.com/@yujia_jo/2016-jiangsu-gaokao-national-hi...
- WhyOhWhyQ 4y ago
  I was really thinking about the lack of 1-2 years of general education classes before a major can be declared, at university, with that particular remark. I know this to be the case in several European countries, and India; in India you choose a specialization at the "11th-12th" grade level I believe. I did assume that to be the case in China, though it looks like Chinese universities may actually spend a lot of time on gen-ed classes. I'll have to ask my Chinese friends about their experience. I think you declare a major in the first year of university in South Korea, but I could be mistaken. If anybody wants to shed light on this by sharing when the major/specialization is declared in their country, please do. I do know there are countries which allow specialization at the high school level (India, Italy, Romania I believe). I found this interesting list, which is more complete than I can be on this. I don't think it proves that countries with great mathematical cultures always allow specialization in high school, but it does have some examples of this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secondary_education_systems_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secondary_education_sy...
caddemon 4y ago
Most colleges I'm aware of these days have a completely softball core math/science requirement. "Rocks for jocks" and that kind of thing. Whether it's a waste of time or not, I don't think it really impedes the serious math learners. I think you are right that we need more flexibility on the high school level though, at least for juniors/seniors that have safely passed the earlier requirements. I like that we have a chance to dabble in various subjects in college here before committing to something, but it would be a lot more efficient if some of that could be done in late high school.
- WhyOhWhyQ 4y ago
  "Whether it's a waste of time or not, I don't think it really impedes the serious math learners." I thought about this for a bit. Suppose we kept the number of teachers (or courses) fixed, but eliminated the gen-ed math requirement. You would end up with a better teacher : student ratio, and I believe this would benefit the serious math learners. And so by not doing this, I believe we may be implicitly impeding them. My guess is there are lots of ways wasted resources (and I do believe any class which could be perceived as "rocks for jocks"-type is wasted resources, and may actually be a damaging use of resources - I say this as a TA for the pre-major courses*, where the students are constantly and overwhelmingly negative about the whole thing) are implicitly impeding the serious students. (And, as a positive note, I think the students not characterized as "serious students" for the above discussion could have a chance at meaningful and valuable contribution elsewhere, if we weren't putting so much effort into wasting their time.) Edit: Changed "lower level courses" to "pre-major courses"

junar 4y ago

> As far as I can tell, most other countries with successful mathematics cultures operate more like this. Which country do you mean? As far as I'm aware, it's the opposite: countries like China and South Korea have math as a required subject on their college entrance exams for all students. The non-STEM students may have fewer requirements, but I'm fairly sure they've still learned more than the average American high school student. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaokao#Reform_of_the_National_College_Entrance_Examination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaokao#Reform_of_the_National_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_Scholastic_Ability_Test#Mathematics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_Scholastic_Ability_Tes... https://medium.com/@yujia_jo/2016-jiangsu-gaokao-national-higher-education-entrance-exam-mathematics-2beefb93cec7 https://medium.com/@yujia_jo/2016-jiangsu-gaokao-national-hi...

WhyOhWhyQ 4y ago
I was really thinking about the lack of 1-2 years of general education classes before a major can be declared, at university, with that particular remark. I know this to be the case in several European countries, and India; in India you choose a specialization at the "11th-12th" grade level I believe. I did assume that to be the case in China, though it looks like Chinese universities may actually spend a lot of time on gen-ed classes. I'll have to ask my Chinese friends about their experience. I think you declare a major in the first year of university in South Korea, but I could be mistaken. If anybody wants to shed light on this by sharing when the major/specialization is declared in their country, please do. I do know there are countries which allow specialization at the high school level (India, Italy, Romania I believe). I found this interesting list, which is more complete than I can be on this. I don't think it proves that countries with great mathematical cultures always allow specialization in high school, but it does have some examples of this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secondary_education_systems_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secondary_education_sy...

caddemon 4y ago

Most colleges I'm aware of these days have a completely softball core math/science requirement. "Rocks for jocks" and that kind of thing. Whether it's a waste of time or not, I don't think it really impedes the serious math learners. I think you are right that we need more flexibility on the high school level though, at least for juniors/seniors that have safely passed the earlier requirements. I like that we have a chance to dabble in various subjects in college here before committing to something, but it would be a lot more efficient if some of that could be done in late high school.

WhyOhWhyQ 4y ago
"Whether it's a waste of time or not, I don't think it really impedes the serious math learners." I thought about this for a bit. Suppose we kept the number of teachers (or courses) fixed, but eliminated the gen-ed math requirement. You would end up with a better teacher : student ratio, and I believe this would benefit the serious math learners. And so by not doing this, I believe we may be implicitly impeding them. My guess is there are lots of ways wasted resources (and I do believe any class which could be perceived as "rocks for jocks"-type is wasted resources, and may actually be a damaging use of resources - I say this as a TA for the pre-major courses*, where the students are constantly and overwhelmingly negative about the whole thing) are implicitly impeding the serious students. (And, as a positive note, I think the students not characterized as "serious students" for the above discussion could have a chance at meaningful and valuable contribution elsewhere, if we weren't putting so much effort into wasting their time.) Edit: Changed "lower level courses" to "pre-major courses"