4 ms·

You are correct in that I did not understand the matter when I first asked the question. However, the replies that I got did nothing to really answer it; it wa

by tjr 18y ago

You are correct in that I did not understand the matter when I first asked the question. However, the replies that I got did nothing to really answer it; it was just handwaving. That was ten years ago. I understand Lisp systems quite a bit better now, but I maintain that it is a valid question. Why? You have made the point that C programs can be built to rely upon dynamic libraries, and indeed they can, and this is similar to Lisp programs relying upon the Lisp runtime. However, C programs can also be built statically, and not have to rely upon additional libraries being present. This is not only possible, but fairly common, especially for simple programs. If a Lisp novice is trying to build, say, "Hello World," and expects a static executable as a result, why is that so much to ask? In fact, it is a lot to ask of Lisp, but if you are new to Lisp, you are not likely to understand why. I wouldn't expect a novice C programmer to write "Hello, World" such that it depends upon dynamic libraries; moreover, a novice ought to be able to stay busy learning C and writing ostensibly useful programs for quite a while without doing dynamic linking. Unfortunately, it seems that too many Lisp novices don't get the answer that you have provided (which is quite a useful answer). Instead, their question is brushed off as irrelevant. At least this has been the case in the past; I could not say if anything has changed.

anamax 18y ago
Huh? You said that you were a "C programmer" when you asked about running lisp executables. When someone says "I'm a C programmer", as most folks asking about "lisp executables" on comp.lang.lisp do, I think that it's reasonable to assume that they've heard of and understand dynamic libraries. Some lisps have static linking, some don't. I'm sorry that this was a show stopper for you. Would an "install shield" builder, as is typically used for windows programs, have helped? I don't suppose that you had the same reaction to Java, Python, Perl, awk, sed, tcl....
- tjr 18y ago
  When delivering an application to an end-user, hoops that the end-user has to jump through in order to run the application ought to be considered. The optimal route, in my opinion, is to deliver a totally self-contained application that doesn't require the user to install any runtime systems whatsoever. In that light, yes, Java is suboptimal. However, installing the JRE is pretty straightforward for end-users. Many users even already have the JRE installed. Asking an end-user to install CLisp is a whole other kettle of fish.
- skolos 18y ago
  This post is proving my point: instead of answering simple questions being asked, lispers start lecturing and picking on other languages. You shouldn't know about static and dynamic linking, interpreters and compilers and other under the hood stuff to write simple lisp program (or even quite complex) and show it off to your friend without installing whole lisp implementation (maybe emacs with slime too?) on your friend's computer. Why lispers are so elitist? Lisp is good not because it is the hardest language to learn, it is actually quite easy to pick up basic stuff, lisp is good because it is very powerful. Why make it harder for novices to try this language? This is not the way to develop the community.
  - anamax 18y ago
    Looking above, we see that you admitted that your question was answered. Lisp "executables" typically require run-times, just like "executables" in many other languages. However, now the goal posts are moving. The original question was how to deploy a lisp program. That typically requires the relevant run times, just as it does in every other language that uses dynamic linking and/or interpretation. (Emacs is not required to run lisp. Heck, it isn't even required to write it. Likewise, slime is a development convenience. If it's too much trouble, don't bother.) I mentioned other languages to demonstrate that the problem is not lisp-specific. To write a program in any language, someone has to install a compiler or interpreter and their dependencies. Folks who can't/won't do that themselves are stuck with whatever came with their system. Again, this is not lisp-specific. It would be nice if a reasonable lisp came pre-installed as part of linux distributions. But, like lots of other languages, it doesn't. If you can't or won't install runtimes, there are lots of things that you can't deploy. (That's why I asked about an installation system to help automate this work.) If you can't or won't install a compiler and/or interpreter, there are lots of languages that you can't write.
    - Tritis 18y ago
      You still haven't answered the question. I read the thread and now you're off ranting about other languages needing runtimes blah blah blah. How do I deploy a lisp application to an end user when all I know is his operating system?
- coffeeaddicted 18y ago
  The Java-VM is mostly installed (and installable by-click otherwise) and Python has py2exe. I don't think many windows desktop application are written in the other languages you mentioned. It's really sad, as lisp would probably also be great for desktop development. I mean it's not the problem of lisp - but it's unfortunately still a show-stopper for typical windows application developers.
  - anamax 18y ago
    Almost all windows applications are installed by running a specially built setup program. Often that program is itself a single exe, but not always. Occasionally there's a whole pile of files that the setup program moves to various locations. This seems to be true regardless of the source language(s) of said application. There are some nice tools to build said setup programs. That's why I asked whether they would be useful.
    - Tritis 18y ago
      You're hand waving again. Is there a solution for deploying a lisp application to a windows end user? If I develop an application can a user download an exe which installs the requirements and have the application run after clicking an entry in the start menu?
    - coffeeaddicted 18y ago
      Yes, a tool that creates a simple to use setup for users, which allows those users to start lisp applications after an easy installation from the startmenu would be useful. Maybe that does even exist, I didn't see that so far, but it's been some time (about 3 years) since I last spend some time trying to do something like this. I guess if it would for example install the clisp environment (if it's not installed already) and binds files with lisp extensions to it so they get executed on click that could be sufficient already. Do you know of a ready-to-use tool which does that already?

by tjr 18y ago

anamax 18y ago

Huh? You said that you were a "C programmer" when you asked about running lisp executables. When someone says "I'm a C programmer", as most folks asking about "lisp executables" on comp.lang.lisp do, I think that it's reasonable to assume that they've heard of and understand dynamic libraries. Some lisps have static linking, some don't. I'm sorry that this was a show stopper for you. Would an "install shield" builder, as is typically used for windows programs, have helped? I don't suppose that you had the same reaction to Java, Python, Perl, awk, sed, tcl....

tjr 18y ago
When delivering an application to an end-user, hoops that the end-user has to jump through in order to run the application ought to be considered. The optimal route, in my opinion, is to deliver a totally self-contained application that doesn't require the user to install any runtime systems whatsoever. In that light, yes, Java is suboptimal. However, installing the JRE is pretty straightforward for end-users. Many users even already have the JRE installed. Asking an end-user to install CLisp is a whole other kettle of fish.
skolos 18y ago
This post is proving my point: instead of answering simple questions being asked, lispers start lecturing and picking on other languages. You shouldn't know about static and dynamic linking, interpreters and compilers and other under the hood stuff to write simple lisp program (or even quite complex) and show it off to your friend without installing whole lisp implementation (maybe emacs with slime too?) on your friend's computer. Why lispers are so elitist? Lisp is good not because it is the hardest language to learn, it is actually quite easy to pick up basic stuff, lisp is good because it is very powerful. Why make it harder for novices to try this language? This is not the way to develop the community.
- anamax 18y ago
  Looking above, we see that you admitted that your question was answered. Lisp "executables" typically require run-times, just like "executables" in many other languages. However, now the goal posts are moving. The original question was how to deploy a lisp program. That typically requires the relevant run times, just as it does in every other language that uses dynamic linking and/or interpretation. (Emacs is not required to run lisp. Heck, it isn't even required to write it. Likewise, slime is a development convenience. If it's too much trouble, don't bother.) I mentioned other languages to demonstrate that the problem is not lisp-specific. To write a program in any language, someone has to install a compiler or interpreter and their dependencies. Folks who can't/won't do that themselves are stuck with whatever came with their system. Again, this is not lisp-specific. It would be nice if a reasonable lisp came pre-installed as part of linux distributions. But, like lots of other languages, it doesn't. If you can't or won't install runtimes, there are lots of things that you can't deploy. (That's why I asked about an installation system to help automate this work.) If you can't or won't install a compiler and/or interpreter, there are lots of languages that you can't write.
  - Tritis 18y ago
    You still haven't answered the question. I read the thread and now you're off ranting about other languages needing runtimes blah blah blah. How do I deploy a lisp application to an end user when all I know is his operating system?
coffeeaddicted 18y ago
The Java-VM is mostly installed (and installable by-click otherwise) and Python has py2exe. I don't think many windows desktop application are written in the other languages you mentioned. It's really sad, as lisp would probably also be great for desktop development. I mean it's not the problem of lisp - but it's unfortunately still a show-stopper for typical windows application developers.
- anamax 18y ago
  Almost all windows applications are installed by running a specially built setup program. Often that program is itself a single exe, but not always. Occasionally there's a whole pile of files that the setup program moves to various locations. This seems to be true regardless of the source language(s) of said application. There are some nice tools to build said setup programs. That's why I asked whether they would be useful.
  - Tritis 18y ago
    You're hand waving again. Is there a solution for deploying a lisp application to a windows end user? If I develop an application can a user download an exe which installs the requirements and have the application run after clicking an entry in the start menu?
  - coffeeaddicted 18y ago
    Yes, a tool that creates a simple to use setup for users, which allows those users to start lisp applications after an easy installation from the startmenu would be useful. Maybe that does even exist, I didn't see that so far, but it's been some time (about 3 years) since I last spend some time trying to do something like this. I guess if it would for example install the clisp environment (if it's not installed already) and binds files with lisp extensions to it so they get executed on click that could be sufficient already. Do you know of a ready-to-use tool which does that already?