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FWIW he's fairly anonymous outside the USA. It was in Mike Duncan's "Revolutions" podcast that I first encountered him properly (not counting a reference I didn
by smcl 5y ago
FWIW he's fairly anonymous outside the USA. It was in Mike Duncan's "Revolutions" podcast that I first encountered him properly (not counting a reference I didn't understand in "Scrubs" a decade or so earlier). When it comes down to it, he was a bit more of a complex Bad Guy than your Adolfs Hitler or your Judases Iscariot.
What is odd is the suggestion that "Benedict" is ill favoured due to the memory of Benedict Arnold, while more universally and unambiguously bad guys (from the perspective of the US state) like Robert E. Lee and David Duke don't have this
- JustLurking2022 5y agoMore complicated in some ways but also surprisingly similar in that he would rather see his country burn than see someone else get credit for it's success.
- smcl 5y agoMany people here will remember what they learned or heard, and instinctively downvote because they believe Arnold was a traitor through and through, and that it's not worth considering anything otherwise. But as I recall he was a relatively successful officer in the US army in the war of independence. But he'd been overlooked within the US military (and incurred financial losses to boot) which make his decision to work with the British a bit more understandable. Looking back in hindsight with the USA as a distinct and separate nation, it looks like he's betrayed the nation of his birth ... but in the context of a civil war where there are two factions broadly of the same "nationality" fighting for independence it's a little more complex than that
- JustLurking2022 5y agoI am both aware of those circumstances, and considered them. At the end of the day, Saratoga was won by hoards of soldiers largely anonymous to history, and yet they didn't betray their country for lack of credit. On the balance, Arnold's motives appear self-serving, and his willingness to betray his allegiance for a seemingly better deal made him a traitor.
- rootusrootus 5y agoEh, he tried to sell a military fort (West Point) to the British for what would be about $5M today. I don't care how butthurt he was over a lack of recognition (he was a Major General, FFS), he earned the "traitor" moniker 100%.
- chasil 5y agoIf I read this correctly, Arnold was responsible for the victory of Saratoga, but public accolades were given to Horatio Gates, who would later prove completely incompetent (and something of a coward at Camden). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Gates https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Gates It does appear that Benedict Arnold did greater service to the United States than the harm of his betrayal.
- ncmncm 5y agoHe tried to do a lot more harm than he succeeded at. Had it worked, it is not clear the colonies would have won in the end.
- drewcoo 5y agoThere's bad and then there is traitorous - completely untrustworthy. Robert E. Lee might be seen as a traitor, but only if everyone citizen of the CSA is. I'm not aware of David Duke being a traitor.
- labster 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- octopoc 5y agoThere is nuance here that you might not be aware of. He just had higher loyalty to his state than the union, something that was common back then. For better or for worse, the United States became dramatically more centralized after the Civil War, both in terms of political power and in the public's consciousness. One way I've heard it expressed is that before the Civil War, people would say "The United States are..." but after the Civil War people say "The United States is..." edit: also please refrain from telling people what to feel, it's rude and hinders the conversation
- winstonewert 5y agoPeople despise traitors because they pretend to be on one side while actually working for another. That's why Benedict Arnold is despised and Lee is not. Lee may turned against the Federal government, but he never pretended to be on a different side then he was.
- winstonewert 5y agoThere a lot of other famous Roberts and Davids, to dilute any negative connotation associated with Robert E. Lee and David Duke. Benedict has a lot less dilution powers. Furthermore, most people don't care or know about David Duke and Robert E. Lee is seen by many as a noble and sympathetic character. Benedict Arnold is the only one of those three who will be consistently seen as a big and important villain by the general american public.
- hrunt 5y agoRobert E. Lee was indicted for treason, but the nation favored reconciliation over retribution, and the treason of the South was ignored by the country as a whole. Lee's prosecution was later dropped. If Johnson had gotten his way and prosecuted the leaders of the South, the US' feelings towards Lee today might be different.
- usrn 5y ago[flagged]
- winstonewert 5y agoRe point 2, really?
- usrn 5y agoYeah up until he started losing his mind near the end Hitler mostly did what the people who elected him expected him to do. It might not be good or what everyone else wanted but there's no real betrayal there IMO.
- WalterBright 5y agoIf the Colonies had lost the Revolutionary War, the signers of the Declaration of Independence knew they'd all hang for treason.