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Three names no parent will name their sons - Benedict, Adolf, Judas. Poor bastard. Talk about choosing poorly. Sold his legacy for peanuts.
by qiskit 4y ago
Three names no parent will name their sons - Benedict, Adolf, Judas. Poor bastard. Talk about choosing poorly. Sold his legacy for peanuts.
- smcl 4y agoFWIW he's fairly anonymous outside the USA. It was in Mike Duncan's "Revolutions" podcast that I first encountered him properly (not counting a reference I didn't understand in "Scrubs" a decade or so earlier). When it comes down to it, he was a bit more of a complex Bad Guy than your Adolfs Hitler or your Judases Iscariot. What is odd is the suggestion that "Benedict" is ill favoured due to the memory of Benedict Arnold, while more universally and unambiguously bad guys (from the perspective of the US state) like Robert E. Lee and David Duke don't have this
- JustLurking2022 4y agoMore complicated in some ways but also surprisingly similar in that he would rather see his country burn than see someone else get credit for it's success.
- smcl 4y agoMany people here will remember what they learned or heard, and instinctively downvote because they believe Arnold was a traitor through and through, and that it's not worth considering anything otherwise. But as I recall he was a relatively successful officer in the US army in the war of independence. But he'd been overlooked within the US military (and incurred financial losses to boot) which make his decision to work with the British a bit more understandable. Looking back in hindsight with the USA as a distinct and separate nation, it looks like he's betrayed the nation of his birth ... but in the context of a civil war where there are two factions broadly of the same "nationality" fighting for independence it's a little more complex than that
- JustLurking2022 4y agoI am both aware of those circumstances, and considered them. At the end of the day, Saratoga was won by hoards of soldiers largely anonymous to history, and yet they didn't betray their country for lack of credit. On the balance, Arnold's motives appear self-serving, and his willingness to betray his allegiance for a seemingly better deal made him a traitor.
- rootusrootus 4y agoEh, he tried to sell a military fort (West Point) to the British for what would be about $5M today. I don't care how butthurt he was over a lack of recognition (he was a Major General, FFS), he earned the "traitor" moniker 100%.
- chasil 4y agoIf I read this correctly, Arnold was responsible for the victory of Saratoga, but public accolades were given to Horatio Gates, who would later prove completely incompetent (and something of a coward at Camden). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Gates https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Gates It does appear that Benedict Arnold did greater service to the United States than the harm of his betrayal.
- ncmncm 4y agoHe tried to do a lot more harm than he succeeded at. Had it worked, it is not clear the colonies would have won in the end.
- drewcoo 4y agoThere's bad and then there is traitorous - completely untrustworthy. Robert E. Lee might be seen as a traitor, but only if everyone citizen of the CSA is. I'm not aware of David Duke being a traitor.
- labster 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- octopoc 4y agoThere is nuance here that you might not be aware of. He just had higher loyalty to his state than the union, something that was common back then. For better or for worse, the United States became dramatically more centralized after the Civil War, both in terms of political power and in the public's consciousness. One way I've heard it expressed is that before the Civil War, people would say "The United States are..." but after the Civil War people say "The United States is..." edit: also please refrain from telling people what to feel, it's rude and hinders the conversation
- winstonewert 4y agoPeople despise traitors because they pretend to be on one side while actually working for another. That's why Benedict Arnold is despised and Lee is not. Lee may turned against the Federal government, but he never pretended to be on a different side then he was.
- winstonewert 4y agoThere a lot of other famous Roberts and Davids, to dilute any negative connotation associated with Robert E. Lee and David Duke. Benedict has a lot less dilution powers. Furthermore, most people don't care or know about David Duke and Robert E. Lee is seen by many as a noble and sympathetic character. Benedict Arnold is the only one of those three who will be consistently seen as a big and important villain by the general american public.
- hrunt 4y agoRobert E. Lee was indicted for treason, but the nation favored reconciliation over retribution, and the treason of the South was ignored by the country as a whole. Lee's prosecution was later dropped. If Johnson had gotten his way and prosecuted the leaders of the South, the US' feelings towards Lee today might be different.
- usrn 4y ago[flagged]
- winstonewert 4y agoRe point 2, really?
- usrn 4y agoYeah up until he started losing his mind near the end Hitler mostly did what the people who elected him expected him to do. It might not be good or what everyone else wanted but there's no real betrayal there IMO.
- WalterBright 4y agoIf the Colonies had lost the Revolutionary War, the signers of the Declaration of Independence knew they'd all hang for treason.
- Veen 4y agoNo American parent perhaps. The name doesn't have negative connotations elsewhere. For me, it's more associated with the previous pope and the actor than with Arnold.
- er4hn 4y agoAs an example, the UK tech analyst Benedict Evans: https://www.ben-evans.com/ https://www.ben-evans.com/
- throwyawayyyy 4y agoBenedict Cumberbatch :)
- dole 4y agoDirk :/
- krapht 4y agoWould it be weird if I named my son Guy Fawkes?
- imron 4y agoPossibly, but it would not be weird at all to name him Guy <your surname>
- BurningFrog 4y ago"This Guy Fawkes!"
- lolinder 4y agoEven as an American I think first of the pope. I still wouldn't name my child Benedict, but I hardly blink when I see it used.
- pella 4y agoother: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold_(congressman) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold_(congressman) "Benedict Arnold (October 5, 1780 – March 3, 1849) was an American politician from New York, and a member of the House of Representatives." "He was named in honor of the famous Benedict Arnold at a time during the American Revolutionary War when he was still seen as a hero of the United States, stemming from the capture of Fort Ticonderoga."
- qiskit 4y agoThat's interesting. Benedict Arnold's treason was exposed in late september and this guy was born early october before his parents found out about the treason. So news definitely spread slowly back then. It says he had 12 children. I wonder if he named any of his sons benedict.
- pella 4y agoOne of his children was also Benedict. "They had twelve children, Hiram, Jane, William, Maria, James, Charlotte, Lorenzo, Benedict, Hasley, Sarah, Marion, and Adam"
- drewcoo 4y agoBenjamin Arnold was outed September 23rd, 1780 with the capture of his conspirator, Andres. Andres was hanged October 2nd, also in New York. Maybe the news didn't spread quickly enough? It seems suspicious, though, given how big a story it was. Maybe his parents were Tories? https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/benedict-accomplice-hanged https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/benedict-accompl...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- pella 4y agoU.S. Most common male names: Rank=642. ADOLPH 0.01% 35,717 Rank=1124. BENEDICT 0.00% 12,988 https://namecensus.com/first-names/common-male-first-names/?start=900 https://namecensus.com/first-names/common-male-first-names/?...
- khazhoux 4y ago> Three names no parent will name their sons - Benedict, Adolf, Judas What? The name is now extremely popular again, thank to the actor from the Marvel movies (Dr. Strange) and TV's Sherlock Holmes. I'm talking, of course, about Adolf Judas Cumberbatch.
- mbg721 4y agoMr. and Mrs. XVI's son seems to have done quite well for himself as well.
- colordrops 4y agoA kid at my son's school is named Judas.
- mbg721 4y agoThe name also shows up occasionally as "Jude" (Jude Law, for example), which is fair given that there was another Apostle by that name. It's still far more often than you run into anyone called Pontius Pilate these days.
- loveJesus 4y agoAleluya, a book in the Bible is called Judas (after Jesus' brother through Mary and Joseph)
- chalst 4y agoI've vouched for this comment, since it is actually relevant to what it is responding to, but a glance suggests all your other comments are spam. Spamming forums is not generally an effective way of being heard if those forums take spam-prevention seriously.
- Fargoan 4y agoSold his legacy for peanuts? Maybe he didn't care about legacy. And the situation was more complicated than you're implying.
- chasil 4y agoNot many people know about Nathanael Greene either. He was also a brilliant general, instrumental in the defense of the South from Tarleton, leading to Yorktown. He also played a role in New York, saving us from disaster. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathanael_Greene https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathanael_Greene Had Benedict Arnold remained loyal, maybe he would have similar name recognition (which is not much).
- cafard 4y agoI've always assumed that various Greenevilles, Greenesboros were named after him. The Wikipedia entry for Greenesboro, North Carolina, says that it is.
- throwaway0a5e 4y agoI knew a dude named Adolf. He was from wherever in Africa used to be a German colony.
- waste_monk 4y agoAn Adolf Hitler won a minor election in Namibia a couple of years ago: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-55173605 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-55173605
- jandrese 4y agoOf course he has to immediately assure the reporter that he isn't planning to use this victory to springboard his plans for world domination.
- WalterBright 4y agoThe best lyric in "Jesus Christ Superstar" is when Jesus yells at Judas for betraying him "You liar, you Judas!"