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Update - having re-read the first post about this, it seems that the issue of resources is exactly the problem. I think that opponents of the CMF would prefer t

Update - having re-read the first post about this, it seems that the issue of resources is exactly the problem. I think that opponents of the CMF would prefer to see More Resources put into careful, thorough elementary/middle school math so that middle schoolers would thrive in 8th grade Algebra. And in their view, the CMF simply lowers the bar, masking the need for more resources. I agree with that!

danans 4y ago
The lack of resources for public education, coupled with the every increasing level of competency that students are required to internalize over time drives many of the fights in education. I can understand how an electrical engineering professor like yourself is rightly concerned about your incoming students having less calculus proficiency. On the other hand, there many (possibly far more numerous than EE) education and career paths that would benefit from better general numeracy but not necessary calculus. The terrible thing here is that these goals should be set against one another due to resource limitations. The blame for that lies with the broader societal inequities and their reflection on the educational funding system.
- keneda7 4y ago
  I'm a product of public schools and a state college. Due to my experiences I will never vote to give teachers one more dollar in funding until major changes occur. I had multiple high school teachers that were checked out. Would watch movies and do worksheets. We learned nothing in their class other than how bad they thought students were now days. Yet they were never fired. Some lasted another 10 years before retiring. I also had multiple professors that would start terms by saying if you have conservative views and you express them in class I will fail you. Had another professor joke about how she found out a student was part of a club she didn't like so she failed him. Often times these were not GE classes but CS specific. Politics have nothing to do with a class on OOP or AI. That is not teaching IMO. I have a ton of friends that feel the same way. Until this issue is actually recognized and addressed I do not believe you see anything change.
- rayiner 4y ago
  What exactly do you think are the facts regarding the "lack of resources" in education and "the educational funding system?" Are you aware that the U.S. spends among the most on primary education (adjusted for purchasing power) of any developed country: https://www.statista.com/statistics/238733/expenditure-on-education-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/238733/expenditure-on-ed... Or that 50% of total K-12 school funding comes from federal and state sources, which is directed mainly at lower-income districts? And that, when including those funds, only a few states (ironically blue ones) have more than a 5% gap between rich and poor districts: https://edtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Gaps-in-State-and-Local-Revenues-per-Student-Between-Districts-Serving-the-Most-and-the-Fewest-Students-in-Poverty.jpg https://edtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Gaps-in-State.... Meanwhile about 20 states (including many red ones like Utah and Georgia) direct over 5% or more funding to poor school districts than rich ones?
  - danans 4y ago
    > Are you aware that the U.S. spends among the most on primary education Yes, and I'm also aware that in the US we expect the public school system to be a primary treatment center for the disadvantages and traumas associated with poverty and unequal opportunity. It's more expensive (and harder) to educate hungry, ignored, and traumatized children than it is to educate children who are well take care of. They need more support staff, more psychologists, more free lunch programs, after-school care that their parents can never afford. And it's hard to attract good teachers to teach academics in those circumstances. The major problems with primary education in the US are largely faced disadvantaged communities, not prosperous ones. If we decide to remove educational funding from disadvantaged communities, we have to be prepared to either put it into those communities in other ways, otherwise we'll face even greater problems in schools. None of that is to say that there doesn't need to be more accountability in school systems - there is a lot that needs to be done to re-examine how education is delivered. But just looking at the situation by comparing $ spent on primary education between countries is oversimplifying things.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      > Yes, and I'm also aware that in the US we expect the public school system to be a primary treatment center for the disadvantages and traumas associated with poverty and unequal opportunity. That’s true in virtually every country, because the school system is always the government’s primary point of contact with poor families. > It's more expensive (and harder) to educate hungry, ignored, and traumatized children than it is to educate children who are well take care of. They need more support staff, more psychologists, more free lunch programs, after-school care that their parents can never afford. Agreed on school lunch. Large school districts already offer after school and summer programs. Disagree on more staff and psychologists. That’s the kind of waste that detracts from money for instruction. Countries like Japan and Singapore went from being desperately poor (at a level unimaginable even to an inner city American) to developed in a couple of generations in the 20th century. I’m pretty sure they didn’t (and still don’t) have a bunch of school psychologists on staff.
300bps 4y ago
masking the need for more resources. Want to know the one resource that schools can never give students? Parental involvement. It also happens to be the #1 variable in success for students. If parents aren't checking their children's grades on a daily basis, asking what they're studying, staying in frequent communication with teachers and the school, there is nothing that is going to replace that. My oldest son was on a robotics team during high school in which we were a minority. All the other parents, their kids were studying calculus by the end of high school. I asked every one of them how their kid was able to do that and each one of them shrugged and said, "nothing". To them, "nothing" was their child spending 2 hours per day at Kumon after school and a few hours on the weekend in addition to their constant checking of their work and insistence on academic excellence.
- bcrosby95 4y ago
  You also have to be careful about "well performing" school districts for a similar reason. I live in one such district and most of the parents I know have a regular, dedicated tutor for each of their kids. The teachers expect a lot because of this. Good luck if you can't afford such help.
  - gnicholas 4y ago
    When my kid was in kindergarten, half the class had an outside tutor. I learned this the next year, when a parent offered to share her tutor with us. This concept is strange to me; when I was growing up, a "tutor" was someone who helped kids who were behind. Nowadays the word seems to also refer to an outside coach who helps kids get ahead.

danans 4y ago

The lack of resources for public education, coupled with the every increasing level of competency that students are required to internalize over time drives many of the fights in education. I can understand how an electrical engineering professor like yourself is rightly concerned about your incoming students having less calculus proficiency. On the other hand, there many (possibly far more numerous than EE) education and career paths that would benefit from better general numeracy but not necessary calculus. The terrible thing here is that these goals should be set against one another due to resource limitations. The blame for that lies with the broader societal inequities and their reflection on the educational funding system.

keneda7 4y ago
I'm a product of public schools and a state college. Due to my experiences I will never vote to give teachers one more dollar in funding until major changes occur. I had multiple high school teachers that were checked out. Would watch movies and do worksheets. We learned nothing in their class other than how bad they thought students were now days. Yet they were never fired. Some lasted another 10 years before retiring. I also had multiple professors that would start terms by saying if you have conservative views and you express them in class I will fail you. Had another professor joke about how she found out a student was part of a club she didn't like so she failed him. Often times these were not GE classes but CS specific. Politics have nothing to do with a class on OOP or AI. That is not teaching IMO. I have a ton of friends that feel the same way. Until this issue is actually recognized and addressed I do not believe you see anything change.
rayiner 4y ago
What exactly do you think are the facts regarding the "lack of resources" in education and "the educational funding system?" Are you aware that the U.S. spends among the most on primary education (adjusted for purchasing power) of any developed country: https://www.statista.com/statistics/238733/expenditure-on-education-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/238733/expenditure-on-ed... Or that 50% of total K-12 school funding comes from federal and state sources, which is directed mainly at lower-income districts? And that, when including those funds, only a few states (ironically blue ones) have more than a 5% gap between rich and poor districts: https://edtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Gaps-in-State-and-Local-Revenues-per-Student-Between-Districts-Serving-the-Most-and-the-Fewest-Students-in-Poverty.jpg https://edtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Gaps-in-State.... Meanwhile about 20 states (including many red ones like Utah and Georgia) direct over 5% or more funding to poor school districts than rich ones?
- danans 4y ago
  > Are you aware that the U.S. spends among the most on primary education Yes, and I'm also aware that in the US we expect the public school system to be a primary treatment center for the disadvantages and traumas associated with poverty and unequal opportunity. It's more expensive (and harder) to educate hungry, ignored, and traumatized children than it is to educate children who are well take care of. They need more support staff, more psychologists, more free lunch programs, after-school care that their parents can never afford. And it's hard to attract good teachers to teach academics in those circumstances. The major problems with primary education in the US are largely faced disadvantaged communities, not prosperous ones. If we decide to remove educational funding from disadvantaged communities, we have to be prepared to either put it into those communities in other ways, otherwise we'll face even greater problems in schools. None of that is to say that there doesn't need to be more accountability in school systems - there is a lot that needs to be done to re-examine how education is delivered. But just looking at the situation by comparing $ spent on primary education between countries is oversimplifying things.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    > Yes, and I'm also aware that in the US we expect the public school system to be a primary treatment center for the disadvantages and traumas associated with poverty and unequal opportunity. That’s true in virtually every country, because the school system is always the government’s primary point of contact with poor families. > It's more expensive (and harder) to educate hungry, ignored, and traumatized children than it is to educate children who are well take care of. They need more support staff, more psychologists, more free lunch programs, after-school care that their parents can never afford. Agreed on school lunch. Large school districts already offer after school and summer programs. Disagree on more staff and psychologists. That’s the kind of waste that detracts from money for instruction. Countries like Japan and Singapore went from being desperately poor (at a level unimaginable even to an inner city American) to developed in a couple of generations in the 20th century. I’m pretty sure they didn’t (and still don’t) have a bunch of school psychologists on staff.

300bps 4y ago

masking the need for more resources. Want to know the one resource that schools can never give students? Parental involvement. It also happens to be the #1 variable in success for students. If parents aren't checking their children's grades on a daily basis, asking what they're studying, staying in frequent communication with teachers and the school, there is nothing that is going to replace that. My oldest son was on a robotics team during high school in which we were a minority. All the other parents, their kids were studying calculus by the end of high school. I asked every one of them how their kid was able to do that and each one of them shrugged and said, "nothing". To them, "nothing" was their child spending 2 hours per day at Kumon after school and a few hours on the weekend in addition to their constant checking of their work and insistence on academic excellence.

bcrosby95 4y ago
You also have to be careful about "well performing" school districts for a similar reason. I live in one such district and most of the parents I know have a regular, dedicated tutor for each of their kids. The teachers expect a lot because of this. Good luck if you can't afford such help.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  When my kid was in kindergarten, half the class had an outside tutor. I learned this the next year, when a parent offered to share her tutor with us. This concept is strange to me; when I was growing up, a "tutor" was someone who helped kids who were behind. Nowadays the word seems to also refer to an outside coach who helps kids get ahead.