6 ms·

Which countries do that and which countries don't?

usrn 4y ago
Germany famously does. Children are given a test and depending on the score they go to Gymnasium (in perpetration for university) or one of two other options which trains them for either trades or labor.
brummm 4y ago
Germany splits students into different schools starting 5th grade and it's absolutely great.
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  Deciding the future of your life in 4th grade (when students are evaluated in Bavaria, at least) is maybe not great. Was living in Munich for five years and I'm glad we left before our son got sorted. There's also a strong racial/class component to who gets into Hauptschule/Realschule/Gymnasium, surprise surprise.
  - Lev1a 4y ago
    Here in M-V I had to go through "Orientierungsstufe"¹ which I partly blame for my learning difficulties and anger issues later in school, since in those two years we later had to find out that we missed 1-1,5 years of material and/or learning methods depending on the subject. I mean... e.g. in Philosophy the teacher was absent for most of those two years resulting in us having to entertain ourselves for those "lessons". When we finally entered Gymnasium at 7th grade we received a culture shock when we had to learn the "Zauberlehrling" by Goethe in 1,5-2 weeks for recital in the first weeks. Realschule felt more like Kindergarten from the treatment by teachers like their attitude while teaching and them not being interested in bullying unless it turned really physical, then protected the bullies when the bullied hit back. What I'm saying is, as the slightly fat kid who also didn't get all the shiny new things from his parents I was bullied by a group of other students surrounding and harassing me almost every single day during breaks those incompetent "teachers" only had the "advice" to basically let the bullies tire themselves out from bullying but heaven forbid once trying to break out of the encirclement i tried to hit one of those bullying lowlives, the teachers descended like vultures isolating me in a room for the rest of the break questioning why I did that instead of "just ignoring the bullies". Those bullies never received any kind of discipline/punishment. Later in Gymnasium, I once had a very heated verbal altercation with a classmate within earshot of a teacher, we were taken aside, our parents called in for an evening sitdown that same week, there we resolved our differences with some guidance from a teacher and remain friends even now. Both schools were only staffed by older teachers with the youngest being late-40s/early-50s and several teachers retiring during my stay at the Gymnasium, so probably little to no influence from education during newer eras of teaching. Honestly I wish I could smack that idiot Brodkorb for all the stupid shit he did as education minister. ¹: no split after 4th grade, instead have everyone go through Realschule for 5th and 6th grade, only starting the split at grade 7.
    - TulliusCicero 4y ago
      I've heard pretty terrible things about Germany tolerating bullying, +1 for that count I guess.
    - Lev1a 4y ago
      Clarification (can't edit the above post anymore): > our parents called in should be our parents were called in
- watwut 4y ago
  It is genuinly too soon.
morelisp 4y ago
In Germany you can be sorted into a Hauptschule around age 10. At this point you will definitely not get a university education via any usual path. Increasingly even "the trades" are closed off to graduates and people expect a Realschule (HS/GED equivalent) degree for those. I don't think university is appropriate for everyone and I dearly wish skilled trades had a higher position in society, and generally don't believe in the idea of "unskilled labor". But the German system is ultimately as cruel as the American one.
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  I don't think either system is great right now. From an American perspective, I really wish that there were still trade-type classes in high school, and those were more accepted as a viable career path at that stage of life for those who want it. One path could be partnerships with local community/technical colleges. My high school participated in a program called "Middle College" where high school students took classes at a local community college (can't remember if it was all or just some) and that seemed to work well.
pmyteh 4y ago
England mostly doesn't (though there's some local variation). Most secondary (11-16/18) schools are 'comprehensive', covering the full range of abilities. It is standard to set pupils by ability in most subjects, but uncommon to track/stream pupils by general ability across the whole curriculum. We previously ran a split system, with exams splitting pupils at 11 into academic ('grammar') and non-academic ('secondary modern') schools. Many grammar schools were good; most sec mods were awful. The exams also famously had pretty poor predictive power for underlying academic ability as an adult, so pathways had to be developed to allow bright pupils to go to higher education despite being mis-sorted in the original exam - which somewhat undermines the point of the system. Comprehensivisation has never been nationally mandated, but nearly all areas have now done away with academic selection at 11. The remaining holdouts are mostly suburban Conservative areas where political power is in the hands of the well-heeled upper middle classes who are strongly in favour of grammars (and expect their own children to go there). Interestingly, Margaret Thatcher (as Education Secretary under Heath) was responsible for more grammar school closures than Labour was. Vocational/academic choices are now being made at age 14 and 16 either within the secondary schools or by moving to local further education colleges (similar to US community colleges and trade schools). Vocational classes are low status. Britain no longer has a strong industrial sector to use such skills, and although both parties advocate for better vocational education essentially everyone who matters would be most unhappy if their darling children were diverted from a university track in the direction of trades. That's something they want other (poorer) people's children to do, not their own. We've never developed good vocational training for offices/services jobs, and although such courses do exist they're not taken particularly seriously by employers, despite several rounds of national reforms.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  I think Northern Ireland still does the 11+
School-Cotton 4y ago
France does.

usrn 4y ago

Germany famously does. Children are given a test and depending on the score they go to Gymnasium (in perpetration for university) or one of two other options which trains them for either trades or labor.

brummm 4y ago

Germany splits students into different schools starting 5th grade and it's absolutely great.

TulliusCicero 4y ago
Deciding the future of your life in 4th grade (when students are evaluated in Bavaria, at least) is maybe not great. Was living in Munich for five years and I'm glad we left before our son got sorted. There's also a strong racial/class component to who gets into Hauptschule/Realschule/Gymnasium, surprise surprise.
- Lev1a 4y ago
  Here in M-V I had to go through "Orientierungsstufe"¹ which I partly blame for my learning difficulties and anger issues later in school, since in those two years we later had to find out that we missed 1-1,5 years of material and/or learning methods depending on the subject. I mean... e.g. in Philosophy the teacher was absent for most of those two years resulting in us having to entertain ourselves for those "lessons". When we finally entered Gymnasium at 7th grade we received a culture shock when we had to learn the "Zauberlehrling" by Goethe in 1,5-2 weeks for recital in the first weeks. Realschule felt more like Kindergarten from the treatment by teachers like their attitude while teaching and them not being interested in bullying unless it turned really physical, then protected the bullies when the bullied hit back. What I'm saying is, as the slightly fat kid who also didn't get all the shiny new things from his parents I was bullied by a group of other students surrounding and harassing me almost every single day during breaks those incompetent "teachers" only had the "advice" to basically let the bullies tire themselves out from bullying but heaven forbid once trying to break out of the encirclement i tried to hit one of those bullying lowlives, the teachers descended like vultures isolating me in a room for the rest of the break questioning why I did that instead of "just ignoring the bullies". Those bullies never received any kind of discipline/punishment. Later in Gymnasium, I once had a very heated verbal altercation with a classmate within earshot of a teacher, we were taken aside, our parents called in for an evening sitdown that same week, there we resolved our differences with some guidance from a teacher and remain friends even now. Both schools were only staffed by older teachers with the youngest being late-40s/early-50s and several teachers retiring during my stay at the Gymnasium, so probably little to no influence from education during newer eras of teaching. Honestly I wish I could smack that idiot Brodkorb for all the stupid shit he did as education minister. ¹: no split after 4th grade, instead have everyone go through Realschule for 5th and 6th grade, only starting the split at grade 7.
  - TulliusCicero 4y ago
    I've heard pretty terrible things about Germany tolerating bullying, +1 for that count I guess.
  - Lev1a 4y ago
    Clarification (can't edit the above post anymore): > our parents called in should be our parents were called in
watwut 4y ago
It is genuinly too soon.

morelisp 4y ago

In Germany you can be sorted into a Hauptschule around age 10. At this point you will definitely not get a university education via any usual path. Increasingly even "the trades" are closed off to graduates and people expect a Realschule (HS/GED equivalent) degree for those. I don't think university is appropriate for everyone and I dearly wish skilled trades had a higher position in society, and generally don't believe in the idea of "unskilled labor". But the German system is ultimately as cruel as the American one.

TulliusCicero 4y ago
I don't think either system is great right now. From an American perspective, I really wish that there were still trade-type classes in high school, and those were more accepted as a viable career path at that stage of life for those who want it. One path could be partnerships with local community/technical colleges. My high school participated in a program called "Middle College" where high school students took classes at a local community college (can't remember if it was all or just some) and that seemed to work well.

pmyteh 4y ago

England mostly doesn't (though there's some local variation). Most secondary (11-16/18) schools are 'comprehensive', covering the full range of abilities. It is standard to set pupils by ability in most subjects, but uncommon to track/stream pupils by general ability across the whole curriculum. We previously ran a split system, with exams splitting pupils at 11 into academic ('grammar') and non-academic ('secondary modern') schools. Many grammar schools were good; most sec mods were awful. The exams also famously had pretty poor predictive power for underlying academic ability as an adult, so pathways had to be developed to allow bright pupils to go to higher education despite being mis-sorted in the original exam - which somewhat undermines the point of the system. Comprehensivisation has never been nationally mandated, but nearly all areas have now done away with academic selection at 11. The remaining holdouts are mostly suburban Conservative areas where political power is in the hands of the well-heeled upper middle classes who are strongly in favour of grammars (and expect their own children to go there). Interestingly, Margaret Thatcher (as Education Secretary under Heath) was responsible for more grammar school closures than Labour was. Vocational/academic choices are now being made at age 14 and 16 either within the secondary schools or by moving to local further education colleges (similar to US community colleges and trade schools). Vocational classes are low status. Britain no longer has a strong industrial sector to use such skills, and although both parties advocate for better vocational education essentially everyone who matters would be most unhappy if their darling children were diverted from a university track in the direction of trades. That's something they want other (poorer) people's children to do, not their own. We've never developed good vocational training for offices/services jobs, and although such courses do exist they're not taken particularly seriously by employers, despite several rounds of national reforms.

selimthegrim 4y ago
I think Northern Ireland still does the 11+

School-Cotton 4y ago

France does.